Thanks for that one - but this time around I think I would like to find a genuine "branded" starter instead of the generic ones that I seem to get through each year. To be fair, the last ChineUSA one supplied by Heritage was actually pretty good. But technology has moved on, so where a front bearing was required 40 years ago, that doesn`t necessarily mean its needed now. Having a read through on the interweb, it seems the old style starters like the one you pictured are being phased out, with the self supporting variants replacing them. Lots of positive comments on the new styles too, with the only real negatives being my same concerns that the Heritage one needs a few modifications to use it, unlike the Machine7 one that looks plug and play.

I guess I`ll know for sure when its back in stock and I can order one 

Today I had a play with a four piece EMPI front Gearbox strap. Like anything VW, there are a lot of comments on the web about these, and people certainly have a love hate relationship with them. The idea is that they add extra rigidity to the gearbox, and prevent it "twisting" under hard acceleration, or "launching". Some also say that they reduce the amount of vibration when Rhino mounts are used. But from what I have read, the love hate relationship generally comes down to those that have had them fitted and absolutely love them, and those that don`t like them have found them so awkward to fit that they just gave up. After having played around with this, I think I understand where the problems are, and hope this helps.





Obviously, there are no instructions with this bit of kit, and very few pictures on the web either, so after painting it blue, I set about fitting it up. The lower strap was fairly obvious how it fitted. It would go around the frame horns at either side, and like any good strap, would clamp around the gearbox at its thickest point, which is where the webbing and bolts are. This bit wasn`t really rocket science to work out.





Now this next bit, I think is where the confusion kicks in. The top two "U" shape clamps have a slight angle on the bottom of them, so they do not sit completely vertically if stood on end. So let me explain then, the error that I also made.

If you offer those "U" clamps up to the bottom bracket, the angle of the join in the seam of the frame horn allows them to sit perfectly upright, and perfectly in line with the thickest part of the gearbox at the top, where the webbing and bolts go. If you then offer up the top strap, it just does not fit, but its tantalisingly close to think that it should. At first, you would be forgiven for thinking that this is just another piece of EMPI junk that is malformed, and shortly afterwards I guarantee that you will be thinking about bending something to try and make it fit.

However, if the "U" clamps are turned through 180 degrees so that they tilt back towards the engine, things become somewhat clearer. Providing that you didn`t try bending the top bar to make it fit, you will notice that there is an extra bend on the right hand side - very slight, and it could easily be missed. But on the gearbox, just in front of where the thick webbing is, is a slight bulge that fits this bar perfectly. Assemble it like this, and everything seems to fit properly and bolt up nice and tight.





It does feel somewhat strange to assemble this with the top and bottom brackets out of alignment, but doing it this way does seems to work.





So, no idea if I have assembled this as EMPI intended, but everything seems to line up without having to force anything. It must be remembered that this is an "additional" support to the main gearbox mounts, and not strictly required, so if I have got it wrong, I guess I will never know.

Was it worth fitting ? Jury is still out on that one until engine back in and on the road once more.

Starter motor wise i have fitted an auto one from coolair vw. Was a straight replacement and does the job v well. Cost about £120.00

Quote from: Mikeohope on September 13, 2015, 10:54:13 AM
Starter motor wise i have fitted an auto one from coolair vw. Was a straight replacement and does the job v well. Cost about £120.00

I`m waiting for one of the genuine Bosch Self supporting starters to arrive from Machine7, as they do not seem to have the same issues of fitment that the Heritage and Coolair ones do. Going for this style over the standard and more conventional ones means that I may not have to change my damaged flywheel.

Any luck with the tyre valves?

Quote from: Manxdavid on September 13, 2015, 11:06:03 AM
Any luck with the tyre valves?

Think so - found some oversized ones in India - just waiting for them to arrive 

QuoteGoing for this style over the standard and more conventional ones means that I may not have to change my damaged flywheel

Hmmm... 

Don't forget that though the starter ring gear is shagged, and believe me it is! It can have a knock on effect
by accelerating wear on the starter bendix as it fly's in and meshes (or try's to mesh), as damage on this scale will
accelerate wear like you wouldn't believe 

The forces happening locally on the teeth of both components are high and in the scheme of things
a new flywheel would be the obvious choice.

It's just a shame VW decided to hob the ring gear directly onto the flywheel, as it would have been easier for us all
later in time to just shrink a new ring on the flywheel when required...

Hey Ho! 

Peter, when it comes to the meshing of gears, I cannot think of a more qualified expert to converse with than yourself.

So here is my train of thought.

The original VW starter has obviously turned before engaging, whether down to the internal timing contact turning before engagement, or down to a sluggish solenoid, the after effects are the same, and that is that it has chewed off between 1.5 to 2.8mm of the front face of the flywheel teeth for around 2 thirds of the flywheel. Interestingly, the teeth on the starter motor are unscathed and look brand new.

The teeth on the flywheel are relatively uniform in shape and have no slanting or distorted edges, they are simply shorter teeth. It has to be said that they are still in far better condition that many flywheels I have seen since, and on those being used without issue.

My concern was not so much the initial meshing of the teeth, but of how much of the tooth was missing, and whether there was enough for the short OEM starter gear to engage with. The new style self supporting starters seem to have a longer gear and a slightly longer throw, which would mean unlike the standard VW starter with its little bush at the end, the new starter would actually use more of the flywheel tooth as a result. This would theoretically mean that my missing front edge may not be too much of an issue.

Granted, the front edge of my teeth is not ideal, but it must also be noted that the starter gear is a much harder material and has a slanted leading edge on the tooth to ensure correct engagement, mine will just engage a few mm later than it should, but still no reason why it should not engage correctly given what I have just said. I can dress any bad shaped teeth to make sure they are all uniform.

If I am right, it "may" work, and if I am wrong, then I will have to drop the engine again and replace the flywheel and probably starter, but its a gamble I think I am willing to take at the moment given the alternatives. I am also not completely convinced that the T25 flywheel I have here has an integrated ring, and I have not dismissed the possibilities of removing the ring and turning it around. Need to see a man about a dog for that one.

I do however seriously value your opinion to my ramblings here 


Anyway,
Replacing the flywheel requires firstly obtaining one. Most secondhand ones I have seen are just as worn and offer no real advantage over mine, so lets look at the new option. Going for a new one (£190) means a 12 week wait for them to come into stock, and then I have to get it machined (£20) and a bearing fitted (£5) for the T25 conversion to my gearbox. It will then have to be shimmed to my engine (£3 per shim)  I will then have to source a new clutch (£130), as my current 210mm one will not fit the new 215mm flywheels, (as the 210mm is now discontinued). All in all, its a 3 month £350+ wait, so you can also appreciate that there isn`t much alternatives around at the moment.

QuoteThe teeth on the flywheel are relatively uniform in shape and have no slanting or distorted edges, they are simply shorter teeth. It has to be said that they are still in far better condition that many flywheels I have seen since, and on those being used without issue

Heaven's, it's in better condition than others you have seen... Phew!

I had forgotten the nature of this build and I guess the cost's are high, well, they are! It's mad 

Most starter's I have seen, all in fact, have quite a slack approach when they engage and this allows
the gear/bendix to align itself and engage as it it fly's in. I think the aligning of it will be quite severe
and over time will wear the flywheel even more, as once the hardening of teeth is compromised
things will get out of shape quite fast.

The starter will probably be quite a lot harder as the process they go through when being made will be
far more controlled due to them being quite a small part.

The ring gear/fly wheel however is a different story, it's far larger and uniform hardness especially on the teeth
of the ring gear will be more difficult to achieve due to the mass of the flywheel itself 'soaking up the heat and
control being lost at the teeth round the outside....

That's why the old ring gear we used to just shrink on would have been better, I think anyway, as being a smaller
profile and an individual part, the hardening process would be more predictable.

Anyway, that's not happening and I hope a good compromise can be reached in that all goes well with no issues as time goes by.

This is an amazing thread that's got so much detail in it, the gearbox cradle I thought was interesting, as when you bury the
throttle the engine twists 'upwards' at the gearbox end, so its a good idea to concentrate on restraining that movement
rather than bolting it all down solid... Maybe!

I have thought a rear mount that was strengthened on its top would be a good idea. I made one but didn't realise this upwards movement at the time, so I took it off as it wasn't really doing anything, but the idea is good, in that a rubber mount's life would be far longer 

It will be interesting to hear how the transmission noise is, to be honest it would do my head in!  But I guess I just like a lil quite after all these years 

Peter,

Just a random thought - If my flywheel ring is integral to the wheel, can it be machined off so that a new ring can be shrunk on?

If so, any clues where I could obtain such a ring?

It would be quite easy to machine the ring gear off, wouldn't be cheap though unfortunately
as the attrition rate using CBN tooling (which really doesn't like interrupted cuts) would be quite high,
that said, it's possible to sacrifice older worn tip's to get the main ring off...

It's an interesting point, as there maybe a ring gear available that would be able to accommodate
the VW starter gear and more importantly, be of a diameter that would restore the original....

I haven't a clue what type/make that would be though...

Worth looking into I guess, just for future reference as most things are 'doable...

Maybe!.... 

Not sure if this is any help bu have to try.
http://www.geneberg.com/article.php?ArticleID=178
Ttfn Glenn

Quote from: 93fxdl on September 13, 2015, 05:22:30 PM
Not sure if this is any help bu have to try.
http://www.geneberg.com/article.php?ArticleID=178
Ttfn Glenn

Nice one 

You know how it is when you are bored waiting for bits to turn up, your mind starts running away with itself, and before you know it you have rummaged through the garage for that box of LED`s with another little challenge to be sorted out. Today was no exception. With the engine out, and a great big void where it should be, I thought about changing the number plate light over to an LED one. I always meant to do it whilst converting the rear lights but just never got around to it.

LEDs have gone through a bit of a transformation over the last couple of years, from a small warning light on the dashboard, to high intensity ones that a lot of us seem to be playing with at the moment. The most recent generation, which for some unknown reason, are called "COB" lights, and these seem to be the brightest of all. The new LED COB lights have a very yellow appearance when off, and are being used as floodlights and worklights due to their intensity. Karl has a bank of these on the roof of his Buggy, and the light output equals any conventional spotlights I have seen. It was after studying Karls lights, that I got interested in these, and have a big box of them for messing about with.

The claimed output rating of these particular little COBs is an unbelievable 9 Watts each. Its not that they are not incredibly bright, I just don`t trust the unbelievable Chinese ratings, so for arguments sake, I`ll call them 6 Watts instead. Ideal for replacing the 5 Watt candle dimmly lurking behind that grubby lens. I also wanted to fit 2 of them, purely as a failsafe, because if one does go, these are not exactly something you can pick up at Halfords and replace by the side of the road.





The recess on the inside of the number plate light holder looked as though it was deep enough to accommodate the two lights, provided I was careful where they were positioned.





I roughly cut out a bit of metal from a Stainless sheet I had kicking around to see if my idea would work.





A couple of holes were drilled and the lights fitted in place - this certainly looked like it was going to work





At this point, I ought to be saying that they are now fitted and working. But I started this post by saying I was bored waiting for my engine bits to arrive. Well, I now had my big box of LEDs out, there is still a large piece of stainless sheet in view, and the workshop is now littered with tools.


Yep . . . .  You guessed . . . .  I got a little bit sidetracked once again   

Whilst rummaging through my box of LEDs, I came across some of the German slimline ones we had left over from lighting up the underside of a customers car. These are not your normal Chinese LEDs, and were quite expensive. Seems a shame to put them back in the garage though.





Back in the 70s, there was a trend amongst Hot Rodders to light up the rear end of your car with a discreetly placed fog light pointing down at the road. In the 90`s, I was a dealer for Koolglow Neons and when the Fast 7 Furious film hit the silver screen around 2000, just about every other customer walking into my shop, left with a giant pair of neon lights to fit underneath their car (often very badly). As the technology progressed towards LED light bars, the light output was severely impaired and as a result, underbody lighting pretty much died overnight.

It was in this queue of traffic earlier this year, that I noticed a blue light on Dave C`s engine, and it did rekindle an old flame for me, as it had been a long time since I had seen this. With my recent find of my box of LEDs, I think you probably know where this thread is now heading.





I quickly lashed together a stainless steel box and pop riveted a few of the lights in place. I wanted the lights to to be inside a box that had edges all the way round, so that it was legal. Let me explain. We all know the law about showing white lights to the front and red lights to the rear, and that with the exception of marker lights, you are not allowed to show any other colours at all. Its a grey area that one, anyway, as although the MOT guy may fail you for it, and constructions and useage do not permit it, it you follow the letter of the law in the highway code, it is not always illegal. Still not something to try though. There is actually a very simple way around it, and that is to make sure that the light itself cannot be seen. Walk around the car and make sure that you cannot see the actual light bulb itself. Peer under the wheel arches and as long as you are looking horizontally or downwards, and the light cannot be seen, then there is no way that anyone following you can see the light either. If you are flat on your back looking upwards, then that is fine, because if you have just knocked someone over, then you have bigger problems to deal with. If all you can see is the area that is being lit up by the light, then you are technically within the law, hence the reason to keep them in a recessed holder.





Oh come on! You knew it was going to be green! Yes, that box is a right old lash up, but in my defense, this is being knocked together as a quick trial on an afternoon tinged with boredom. If this works, then I`ll probably remake it and make it look presentable. I had an idea about that green waterproof switch, and more will be revealed a little later.





Hmmm . . . . . . At near 120 Watts of gorgeous green lighting, I fear that I may have overdone it a little





I drilled a hole in the back of the Buggy, and you can now see where that green switch resides. This gives me a nice hidden switch underneath the number plate light holder. They they take their supply feed from the number plate light which means that I can switch them on and off whenever I want to, or leave them to come on and off as my main lights are activated.





Even when looking up inside the arches, you would struggle to see the actual bulbs themselves, which is the prime objective here





This was an end of an era moment. Since I built the Buggy, it has always had an orange bum. It was never intentional, its just that when I finished off spraying the Buggy with a rattle can, I found myself in the middle of a flying ant attack and never got back to finishing it off. Knowing how some of you guys with OCD used to grit your teeth over it made me leave it that way too. However, with the sun shining and a tin of Austin Allegro green to hand, the days of orange are but a distant memory.





It has been quite a weekend. What started out as frustration over a lack of spares, and general boredom in the garage, have left me with some cool upgrades to my car and a bit of spray painting to boot. Now, at this point, I really ought to be saying that everything is now fitted and working, but I got sidetracked once more.

In fact sidetracked just doesn`t cover this next bit - because reaching for that paint can has just led me on a whole voyage of discovery to the point that I am going to start a completely new thread just for that bit, even though I know it is going to end in tears!