Hi again, my garage had a tweak of my new empi carb to try to improve the running , it is starting really well when cold but needs winding over and the throttle pumping when hot or warm, they put it on the emissions tester and when they revved it it was going really weak. When I put my throttle pedal down hard, it bogs down until I ease off my foot then it picks up , Justin at retro dubs thinks the carbs come with another jet I haven't had time to check the box yet but does this sound like it could be my problem, seems to make a bit of sense that a bigger hey would give more fuel when I boot it. Any experience of similar with the empi carb ? Many thanks .
Quote from: mad4slalom on November 11, 2016, 06:55:26 PM
Hi again, my garage had a tweak of my new empi carb to try to improve the running , it is starting really well when cold but needs winding over and the throttle pumping when hot or warm, they put it on the emissions tester and when they revved it it was going really weak. When I put my throttle pedal down hard, it bogs down until I ease off my foot then it picks up , Justin at retro dubs thinks the carbs come with another jet I haven't had time to check the box yet but does this sound like it could be my problem, seems to make a bit of sense that a bigger hey would give more fuel when I boot it. Any experience of similar with the empi carb ? Many thanks .
oops typo, that was JET not hey !!
Check the jet sizes on a standard solex carb for your engine they will be in a manual or online as a guide against what your empi copy has fitted.
Quote from: snoopy on November 11, 2016, 07:12:22 PM
Check the jet sizes on a standard solex carb for your engine they will be in a manual or online as a guide against what your empi copy has fitted.
. Ok thanks for that, I will see what's in there,
Quote from: mad4slalom on November 11, 2016, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: snoopy on November 11, 2016, 07:12:22 PM
Check the jet sizes on a standard solex carb for your engine they will be in a manual or online as a guide against what your empi copy has fitted.
. Ok thanks for that, I will see what's in there,
. Looked online and a lot of folk say you need to jet up the empi to130 main and a smaller 50 instead of 80 air bypass jet, these came with the carb so will try this tonight
Well , last night I swapped out the jets in the empi carb, read that it should need a 130 main and a 50 idle jet , took out the idle which was already a 50. Bit of trouble with the main, I tried to do it in situ, removed bolt , drained the carb bowl and unscrewed main jet,it was now loose in the bottom of the carb so was teasing it out through the bolt hole when it suddenly flicked out and disappeared!, can't find the jet anywhere, now I didn't see or hear where it landed which made me wonder if it had flipped into the carb somewhere, I had a poke around with a bit of bent fuse wire and couldn't locate it so I am hoping it just dropped in amongst the engine barrel or tinware. Fitted a new 130!main jet and replaced drain plug bolt, only thing is I don't know what size the old one was and also have a niggle that it could be in the bowl somewhere. It idled ok before so hopefully the 50 was right and hoping the 130 main is bigger than what was in there before as is bogging down and is weak on an emissions machine when throttle blipped, too wet in Cornwall to road test yet. Anyone had one of these empi 34 pict carbs and knows what main jet size it came with, and did you jet it up ? Many thanks.
Not sure about empi, which carb is it ?
The Brosal H30/31 from Heritage is supplied with 2 jets, a 130 and a 120...
From the Heritage site...
A ''universal'' carburettor.
Brosol 30/31 PICT 1 single arm carburettor with cut off valve. Comes supplied with 130 Main jet fitted for use with 1600cc engines. A 120 main jet is supplied loose in the box for smaller engines 1200-1500cc. An adapter plate is included for the fitment to 1600cc manifolds this is not used on 1200-1500cc engines.
:D
Quote from: Pondlife on November 18, 2016, 01:25:43 PM
Not sure about empi, which carb is it ?
The Brosal H30/31 from Heritage is supplied with 2 jets, a 130 and a 120...
From the Heritage site...
A ''universal'' carburettor.
Brosol 30/31 PICT 1 single arm carburettor with cut off valve. Comes supplied with 130 Main jet fitted for use with 1600cc engines. A 120 main jet is supplied loose in the box for smaller engines 1200-1500cc. An adapter plate is included for the fitment to 1600cc manifolds this is not used on 1200-1500cc engines. Thanks pond life, the carb came with jets fitted but don't know which main jet was in there and now it's lost!! Also in the box were the 130 main ( that I fitted ) and a 127 main and an 80 idle, so , the idle is definitely a 50 and the main is definitely a 130, the only thing I don't know is what size the main jet that dissapeared was .
:D
Quote from: mad4slalom on November 18, 2016, 11:46:15 AM
Well , last night I swapped out the jets in the empi carb, read that it should need a 130 main and a 50 idle jet , took out the idle which was already a 50. Bit of trouble with the main, I tried to do it in situ, removed bolt , drained the carb bowl and unscrewed main jet,it was now loose in the bottom of the carb so was teasing it out through the bolt hole when it suddenly flicked out and disappeared!, can't find the jet anywhere, now I didn't see or hear where it landed which made me wonder if it had flipped into the carb somewhere, I had a poke around with a bit of bent fuse wire and couldn't locate it so I am hoping it just dropped in amongst the engine barrel or tinware. Fitted a new 130!main jet and replaced drain plug bolt, only thing is I don't know what size the old one was and also have a niggle that it could be in the bowl somewhere. It idled ok before so hopefully the 50 was right and hoping the 130 main is bigger than what was in there before as is bogging down and is weak on an emissions machine when throttle blipped, too wet in Cornwall to road test yet. Anyone had one of these empi 34 pict carbs and knows what main jet size it came with, and did you jet it up ? Many thanks.
. Well , road tested bug today and since I changed to a 130 main jet it is better in that it doesn't bog down now , it started better from hot the first time I tried it then stopped for fuel and after chatting for a while had to really wind it over for a long time to get it to fire then had to rev it to clear its throat then drove ok again, still carburation or ignition timing needs a tweek on the distributor ?, any suggestions , thanks ;-)up
Could be fuel vapourisation in the carb when the engine is hot.
Sounds like the electric choke wants backing off some more!
Rob
Quote from: farmer rob on November 24, 2016, 06:29:08 PM
Sounds like the electric choke wants backing off some more!
Rob
thanks , it starts instantly again if I turn it off and start it again right away, but if left for ten or fifteen minutes it needs winding over and throttle pumping gas to get it to start then a good reve to clear it. Tried holding down the throttle when hot starting which some say is the correct procedure and is better but still not good, maybe just need to experiment to find what needs doing to start when hot. It has cannons which someone said cause uneven running sometimes, I tested again on the road and still getting some bogging down tho not as bad as it was, it did stall once at a junction too, but generally ticks over ok , any suggestions gratefully received ;)
Just an idea but have you checked for air leaks on the inlet manifold ends or the carb spindles ??
When you say bogging down, going lumpy and chugging with black smoke or will not pick up and needs the accelerator used.
Annoying faults like this as there is no real fault to repair and say it is done, more just trial and error.
May be a weAk idle mixture that evaporates due to the heat build up when the engine is turned off and left before it cools after standing a while.
Is your fuel pump supplying enough pressure?
:-\
If you say that when it is warm and you stop it, it will start straight away. It sounds like your settings are about right ;-)up However if you leave it for 10/15 mins, the choke will close and then of cause it will flood the engine! that is why I said you need to back the electric choke off a bit more. There are three screws holding the electric choke mechanism to the carb, put a mark with a marker pen joining it to the carb, for reference. undo the three screws a couple of turns and the choke unit should come loose enough to turn, however sometime the gasket will keep it tight lol. If so give it a tap, hopefully it should be free on a new carb. Then turn the unit so it moves an 1/8 inch against your marks "CLOCKWISE" and retighten the screws. It may need more, it just depends how close it was set up at the factory. Hope this helps
Rob
Quote from: snoopy on November 24, 2016, 05:44:04 PM
Could be fuel vapourisation in the carb when the engine is hot.
Agree I get the same on my twin 40 dells...
Quote from: Mantaray on December 02, 2016, 12:29:40 PM
Quote from: snoopy on November 24, 2016, 05:44:04 PM
Could be fuel vapourisation in the carb when the engine is hot.
Agree I get the same on my twin 40 dells...
Out of interest, mine seems to start no problem when warm but takes 10 or 12 goes on the key to start when cold. I'm running twin Weber IDF 40's. They run beautifully since the rolling road sesh - just cold start issue. Is this normal? Is there a trick to it that I haven't learnt?
Well there is no chokes on IDF's or DRLA's, so to start cold it is a case of two prods on the throttle and turn the key and then catch it on the throttle as it fires. Sometimes it takes two or three goes but it should fire almost straight away so only give it two second burst on the starter between tries. In colder weather say below 10 degrees, I give it three prods at a time. It is of cause slightly different on different engines but this gives you the basic way. hope this helps ;-)up
Rob
Have you got an elecy pump?
I turn the key to prime which can take a while if it's been standing or hot, when the pump slows and float bowls are full 2 pumps if cold none if hot.
Quote from: snoopy on November 26, 2016, 08:14:58 AM
When you say bogging down, going lumpy and chugging with black smoke or will not pick up and needs the accelerator used.
Annoying faults like this as there is no real fault to repair and say it is done, more just trial and error.
May be a weAk idle mixture that evaporates due to the heat build up when the engine is turned off and left before it cools after standing a while.
if I put my foot down hard it feels like it isn't getting enough fuel and hesitates , if I then back my foot off , it picks up again, when the garage had it on the emissions tester and revved it it was going very weak which I feel would explain it feeling starved of fuel when I put my foot hard down yet picks up again when I back off.
Quote from: farmer rob on November 26, 2016, 11:03:51 AM
If you say that when it is warm and you stop it, it will start straight away. It sounds like your settings are about right ;-)up However if you leave it for 10/15 mins, the choke will close and then of cause it will flood the engine! that is why I said you need to back the electric choke off a bit more. There are three screws holding the electric choke mechanism to the carb, put a mark with a marker pen joining it to the carb, for reference. undo the three screws a couple of turns and the choke unit should come loose enough to turn, however sometime the gasket will keep it tight lol. If so give it a tap, hopefully it should be free on a new carb. Then turn the unit so it moves an 1/8 inch against your marks "CLOCKWISE" and retighten the screws. It may need more, it just depends how close it was set up at the factory. Hope this helps
Thanks farmer rob , will look at that next
Rob
Quote from: Flags on December 02, 2016, 06:56:00 PM
Have you got an elecy pump?
I turn the key to prime which can take a while if it's been standing or hot, when the pump slows and float bowls are full 2 pumps if cold none if hot.
no electric pump , I read that the hot start procedure I'd foot flat to the floor, which was definately better than just turning it over and catching it with the throttle pedal once it fired.
Quote from: Dave DND on November 26, 2016, 09:03:06 AM
Is your fuel pump supplying enough pressure?
:-\i don't know but seeing that it starts fine from cold or when it is hot and turned off and started again instantly, the problem is when it is left a while before a restart.
Quote from: Pondlife on November 26, 2016, 08:10:34 AM
Just an idea but have you checked for air leaks on the inlet manifold ends or the carb spindles ??
i tightened all the clips which all went tighter but haven't tried anything else , do I spray this carb cleaner over the ends whilst it is running
Thanks Rob & Flags. Yes I have a leccy pump and it's been so long since I drove a VW that I'd forgotten about the two pumps on the pedal. Just the tip I was after. Ta guys :)
Quote from: Mark Darby on December 02, 2016, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: Mantaray on December 02, 2016, 12:29:40 PM
Quote from: snoopy on November 24, 2016, 05:44:04 PM
Could be fuel vapourisation in the carb when the engine is hot.
Agree I get the same on my twin 40 dells...
Out of interest, mine seems to start no problem when warm but takes 10 or 12 goes on the key to start when cold. I'm running twin Weber IDF 40's. They run beautifully since the rolling road sesh - just cold start issue. Is this normal? Is there a trick to it that I haven't learnt?
When cold try a couple of pumps on the pedal first.
Quote from: Doon L001 on December 03, 2016, 09:33:09 AM
Quote from: Mark Darby on December 02, 2016, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: Mantaray on December 02, 2016, 12:29:40 PM
Quote from: snoopy on November 24, 2016, 05:44:04 PM
Could be fuel vapourisation in the carb when the engine is hot.
Agree I get the same on my twin 40 dells...
Thanks , if it is percolation or vaporisation,( are they the same thing ?) is there a solution to it or a problem we have to live with :-\ thanks
Out of interest, mine seems to start no problem when warm but takes 10 or 12 goes on the key to start when cold. I'm running twin Weber IDF 40's. They run beautifully since the rolling road sesh - just cold start issue. Is this normal? Is there a trick to it that I haven't learnt?
When cold try a couple of pumps on the pedal first.
Hi all , as per farmer rob.s post to back off the electric choke, I did that so am going to try it in ten minutes now it has had a run. On the run it is still bogging down and lumpy,, feeling it needs clearing out, better in top over forty and with little throttle it seems ok but when you come to a hill or a junction and you need to give it some gas is when it bogs and you have to feed very gentle throttle pedal in to get it to pick up smoothly, any thoughts, thanks ;-)up
Has it got a vacum advance distributor and if so does it work, removing and sucking on the carb end of the hose with the dizzy cap off you should see the distributor mechanism move.
Quote from: snoopy on December 04, 2016, 04:04:30 PM
Has it got a vacum advance distributor and if so does it work, removing and sucking on the carb end of the hose with the dizzy cap off you should see the distributor mechanism move.
hi all , just been out playing and test running, tried backing off choke rob, first time no difference , went a bit further clockwise and not feeling as rich when I manoeuvre round the garden , definately starting better hot now ,so whether I can back off more yet I guess will depend on how it starts from cold now, was going to try the vacuum sucking thing next snoopy to see if it is moving, how do I tell an 009 distributed ? As reading that they were never used on beetles and although they work can cause stumbling and poor pick up and response ? Mine is stalling at junctions now so have been reading on setting up the 34 pict carb and several things to check and try with the different throttle screws , but feel it is moving in the right direction, will go and suck on my vacuum pipe now ! ,thanks
Dizzy moving when I suck on vac pipe ;-)up
Is the timing set at 7.5 degrees before tdc although vw used 7.5 btdc to 5degrees after tdcon later engineswith emissions stuff on them. Does the accelerator pump jet work correctly and squirt down the carb not onto the side.
have you got the correct length of plugs in there. ? never trust what was in when you bought it .
I,ve found ODD heads, one side short reach plugs and other long . you can exspect all sorts second hand in the Vw scene ::).
this could well be your problem.
Quote from: grissley on December 05, 2016, 07:04:42 PM
have you got the correct length of plugs in there. ? never trust what was in when you bought it .
I,ve found ODD heads, one side short reach plugs and other long . you can exspect all sorts second hand in the Vw scene ::).
this could well be your problem.
fitted correct plugs from Retrodubs when I got the engine up and running . Am going to change my vacuum advance hose to the correct outlet on the carb tomorrow and test again, thanks for your input ;-)up
take your rocker covers off and check the heads casting number on both, you can search to check which you have or let me know and i can check for you. ( what plugs are in ? )
have you a vw dizzy or after market as after market have a lot of slop in the spindle and will throw the timing all over the place.
bogging down on accelleration is idle jet to small ( I bought some tiny drills of ebay for opening jets out ) saves buying new jets all the time. ( 1600 52- 55 idle ).
Quote from: grissley on December 06, 2016, 10:53:42 AM
take your rocker covers off and check the heads casting number on both, you can search to check which you have or let me know and i can check for you. ( what plugs are in ? )
have you a vw dizzy or after market as after market have a lot of slop in the spindle and will throw the timing all over the place.
bogging down on accelleration is idle jet to small ( I bought some tiny drills of ebay for opening jets out ) saves buying new jets all the time. ( 1600 52- 55 idle ).
thanks grisly and all, vac hose on carb now and loads loads better, much less bogging, hoping now it will still crisp up the pick up now with tweaking carb settings and timing, can't get rocker covers off without removing cannons, so will check casting numbers and plugs when I do my valve clearances. It's a 1600 twin port AC code,, the empi carb came with a 55 idle and I fitted a 130 main jet but lost the original one taking it out so don't know if it was a 130 as well,still a bit black in the exhaust, so could still be a bit rich , do you think I can back off the choke even more as it still starts well from cold and better now from hot but still not as good as it should be, :)
take it for a run to clean the crap out of the engine, then see how it runs the carb may need a tweak to get the mixture weaker.
ideally a full engine set up should be done before setting the carb as in plugs, points, timing and valve clearances all spot on before the fine tuning starts.
Quote from: snoopy on December 06, 2016, 08:07:08 PM
take it for a run to clean the crap out of the engine, then see how it runs the carb may need a tweak to get the mixture weaker.
ideally a full engine set up should be done before setting the carb as in plugs, points, timing and valve clearances all spot on before the fine tuning starts.
thanks snoopy, slowly getting there , the vacuum pipe making a massive improvement, it is getting less rich as I am backing off the choke more and more , noticed it was idling a lot faster after test drive , I guess that's cause it is weaker now ? So reset the idle slower. Will test cold and hot starting tomorrow and look at colour of my plugs and give them a clean. I realise I am doing things back to front and really should be doing valve clearances etc first ,but am getting there thanks to all help from you guys ;-)up
As Snoopy said, you really need to do the valves 1st.
Quote from: Flags on December 06, 2016, 09:39:45 PM
As Snoopy said, you really need to do the valves 1st.
. Ok , think I will bite the bullet and remove the cannons so I can get to my valve covers , ;)