Hi
As you may or may not know my electronic ignition blew in Germany i have a new one on the way but one thing i will need to do is time it.
Yes i could send it to get fitted, but one thing the germany trip highlighted was my massive lack of knowledge of how to fix stuff!
so i'm going to do this myself :)
Now, i need a timing gun....what do i get, i don't mind spending a bit on a good one, as it something that will pay for its self very soon
budget - say £100
Do i need one with Dwell and revs, these are terms I've heard, but not yet fully understand
Help
Also i assume to woks by putting the amount of advance you what into the gun, the strobe flashes at that rate and that effective;y make the number on the pulley stay still on the case line.....
cheers chaps
Personally, I would go for one with both Dwell and Tacho
Dwell isn`t really used for electronic ignition, but makes setting up points soooo simple ;-)up
Any recommendations dave?
Afraid not - I have an old one here inherited from Noah, but no markings on it - possibly Snap-On ?
http://www.accuspark.co.uk/tools.html
Look at the Chrome one that's got advance on it doesn't have dwell though
http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=1356&item=1834
This is the one I have. Had it over 25 years I think, cost me £89 new.
Quote from: Shaggy on May 19, 2016, 07:19:15 AM
http://www.accuspark.co.uk/tools.html
Look at the Chrome one that's got advance on it doesn't have dwell though
http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=1356&item=1834
This is the one I have. Had it over 25 years I think, cost me £89 new.
So with all the advances is manufacturing processes etc over the past 25 years, yours has 'only' gone up £200
!
That scared me.....looked on eBay and found them for £135-£150 on there
Dav
I got my one off FleaBay second hand = welcome to use it if you want. Snap-Op. Seems a really good bit of kit and probably better than I needed. There is one in Manchester showing on FleaBay at the mo - personally I found the tacho a great bonus as I dont have one on the car plus when your head is down near the dizzy its so much easier if the tacho is on the gun.
Quote from: davydoff on May 18, 2016, 08:41:11 PM
Hi
As you may or may not know my electronic ignition blew in Germany i have a new one on the way but one thing i will need to do is time it.
Yes i could send it to get fitted, but one thing the germany trip highlighted was my massive lack of knowledge of how to fix stuff!
so i'm going to do this myself :)
Now, i need a timing gun....what do i get, i don't mind spending a bit on a good one, as it something that will pay for its self very soon
budget - say £100
Do i need one with Dwell and revs, these are terms I've heard, but not yet fully understand
Help
Also i assume to woks by putting the amount of advance you what into the gun, the strobe flashes at that rate and that effective;y make the number on the pulley stay still on the case line.....
cheers chaps
I wouldn't buy a gun with advance timing degrees on it just buy a standard gun, There no need to advance the timing using the gun at all with a aircooled engine you will always have it set to zero.
When timing you can do it 2 ways static or under load
static is when you set your engine to TDC (top dead center) using the strobe and adjust your carb to get the engine running as sweat as possible.
Under load is a better way, with your engine already set TDC as above rev the engine to 3000rpm then using your strobe set the timing to around 10% advance (you then adjust carb to suit if its idealing to high) this way your getting more performance from your engine. Most aircooled engine should be set around 10% advance, but all are a little different so you may need to play around with it.
My drag racing car is set at 17% The maximum you can go is 32% advance but your on the limit and not recommended for road use (think of all the drag racing beetle you see that tick over on the start line at 2500revs) That what they are doing to get the most out of the car, but not really practical for every day use and pertentional engine damaging.
Im confused
I want to set the timing under load. if i need to advance it 10% how do i do that without a gun that does advance..
I think my engine will want more advance than that as its not std. its 2054 with FK8, 1:4 rockers and 44 webbers
I will get my head round this one day, sorry for the daft questions..
Shaggy - i can get the same gun as you for £130 from amazon, so that sound like it will cover me for all eventualities
Davy,
I have an 009, centrifugal advance, ie the advance mechanism thats built into it
relys on weights that fly out as the revs rise, they are on springs and as such are controlled
ie they are not free to just fling right out as soon as the revs increase.
I use a standard pully, not sure what its diameter is now, but somewhere around 170mm I think.
I drew a circle on cad and then put 360 lines all the way around it, after deleting
all but the ones I wanted I was able to get the straight line dimensions in mm from top dead centre on the pulley
to the 28, 30 and 32 degree points.
Using a pair of dividers I then located the TDC mark and scribed these three points across the outside of my pully.
To set my timing...
I loosen the distributor clamp slightly, start the engine and increase the engine revs to about 2800/3000, this ensures
the weights are fully flung out, then using a standard strobe light, I twist the distributor until the 30 degree
marking lines up with the split in the crankcases..
I clamp up the distributor at that point, release the throttle and set tick over to suit...
Depending on the ammount of advance you need or is recomended here, you can just alter the position of the marks,
my engine is not in your league power wise but 30 degrees advance works fine for me.
Thats it, you can time an engine in 5 seconds flat ;-)up
I hope this helps you a bit just to understand whats going on :)
All the best
Peter
(http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/albums/toolsAndIdeas/slides/timing.jpg)
Same as me Peter and it works fine, in fact I only have 2 scibes on Rasperry TDC and 30'.
I do mine as above, I go slightly more towards 32 degrees, which it seems to like.
Great diagram Peter.I will check my pulley now :)
awesome guys, thats kinda what i thought, but managed to confuse myself, easily done ;)
My pulley has marking on it, its this one
(http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/davydoff/2054%20Engine%20build/scat_zpsolhnuqze.jpg) (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/davydoff/media/2054%20Engine%20build/scat_zpsolhnuqze.jpg.html)
So i guess i'm ok with using these numbers
Cheers
QuoteSo i guess i'm ok with using these numbers
Yup! I guess you are ;-)up ..... Go for it Davy :)
Peter
;-)up ;-)up ;-)up ;-)up ;-)up
lets order a timing light and see what happens...
:)
Mines as basic as it gets and runs on two batteries inside it....
Its a bit less bright than some of the nice ones :( and has just one lead to number 1....
Sooo, I time Stell at night! ;-)up 8) ::)
Peter ;D
hahah
i dont what to make t any harder for myself..think i'll go for a really bright one :)
Quote from: davydoff on May 19, 2016, 10:02:09 PM
My pulley has marking on it, its this one
So i guess i'm ok with using these numbers
Check the TDC position when you've fitted the pulley - the numbers on one I had were about 12° out.
FWIW, get one of the strobes with the clamp-on sensor, the intermediate plug cap type can give issues with some types of electronic ignition.
Quote from: Luddite on May 20, 2016, 08:46:42 AM
Check the TDC position when you've fitted the pulley - the numbers on one I had were about 12° out.
OK, next question, how do i do that?
i know can take dizzy cap off and see the arm pointing to No1
i don't seem to have a notch in the dizzy (petronics 3)
how can i be sure i get exactly TDC?
I heard that removing a spark plug and checking with a pencil or similar can do this but what am i checking?
cheers
Plugs out, one rear wheel off the ground, one rocker cover off, vehicle in gear. Rotate the engine using the wheel until both rockers are loose put pencil in no1 plug hole and feel for the top of the piston, keep turning the engine gently until the pencil is at its furthest out - you'll get a lot of rotation for little or no pencil movement here, so move the engine to the middle of the dead rotation phase. That will be TDC, you can check your pulley alignment against the pointer or crankcase joint.
Actually, I just thought, there's a much simpler way! The keyway should be at 90° at TDC, looks in about the right place from your photo so no worries.
awesome, cheers
dav
And keep the pencil in the centre ..... you dont want the piston grabbing it and bits of pencil led and wood being in your cylinder
QuotePlugs out, one rear wheel off the ground, one rocker cover off, vehicle in gear. Rotate the engine using the wheel until both rockers are loose put pencil in no1 plug hole and feel for the top of the piston, keep turning the engine gently until the pencil is at its furthest out - you'll get a lot of rotation for little or no pencil movement here, so move the engine to the middle of the dead rotation phase. That will be TDC, you can check your pulley alignment against the pointer or crankcase joint.
Actually, I just thought, there's a much simpler way! The keyway should be at 90° at TDC, looks in about the right place from your photo so no worries.
Mmmm ;-)up I think I prefer the pencil method... Just rotate the engine and mark the pulley with your pencil just when the pencil
stops moving and then mark it again, with the pencil, just when the pencil starts....
TDC will be/is, right in the middle of them ;-)up
Heaven's, I just love technology, don't you ? ;-)up ;D ;D
Quote from: Peter on May 19, 2016, 10:08:13 PM
QuoteSo i guess i'm ok with using these numbers
Yup! I guess you are ;-)up ..... Go for it Davy :)
Peter
Just do me one favour, once you've fitted the new pulley just check that TDC mark on the pulley
is actually TDC.
H
Using a degree pulley check the tdc marking first by removing number 1 sparkplug and feeling the top of the piston as you gently turn the engine in a rocki ng motion forwards and backwards to find the highest point of travel ( a dial test indicator gauge is the best tool ) but a rod and sensitive hand will do. When piston is at TDC check the tdc sticker lines up with the case join.
I have known stickers to be out of place so your timing will always be wrong.
Hunter got there as I was typing ;-)up
If you dont have a helper how'd you get it to stay at 3000rpm to hold gun and rotate dizzy?
Quote from: apmaman on May 21, 2016, 03:19:45 PM
If you dont have a helper how'd you get it to stay at 3000rpm to hold gun and rotate dizzy?
on some carbs you can screw the tick-over adjuster in ........
with an unloaded engine they rev quite easily
;D ;D
Never even though of doing that.... Was looking for a suitable stick in the garage!
Quote from: apmaman on May 21, 2016, 04:22:47 PM
;D ;D
Never even though of doing that.... Was looking for a suitable stick in the garage!
or a suitable brick...
Or turn the dizzy, then recheck timing, you don't need to turn it while it's revving.
QuoteIf you dont have a helper how'd you get it to stay at 3000rpm to hold gun and rotate dizzy?
??? Well, obviously you don't, you can get third arm transplants though so I've been told! :)
I had a helper, Chris, and today we timed Sally's bug fine.... It took about 8 second's ;-)up once I
was looking in the right place... And, we shut the garage doors to simulate 'Darkness' .... ;D
Helper's are great, but sometimes we have to wait until they are available :)
Peter
I'll try the carb screw. Then failing that hopefully swimbo can lend a foot.
Im tempted by replacing the points too. Not sure if i should get the 1 or 2 module
Given my recent experiences i went for the 1, the reason being that you can use a std coil and someone is more likely to have one.
the only thing is you need to wire it up correctly, if you get it the wrong way round....good bye points
red to positive side on coil - i think the bit that confused people is that the main positive wire to the coil is normally black..
just take you time
dav
I've just put a '1' onto mine. (Read - Buggybaggy put it in so it must be easy).
I put a Flamethrower coil on too, and the only downside so far is that the coil only has 2 male connections for each terminal. I've got the Pertronix, choke, and reversing lights (and something else but I cannot think what at the moment) powered off the coil.
Buggybaggy have a look at this, it might be adapted to fit your coil.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/388041-67-Terminal-flat-6-3mm-0-8mm-4-x-male-with-copper-rivet-riveted-/201484538490?hash=item2ee96a127a:g:hlkAAOSwAKxWbawD
Quote from: Shaggy on May 22, 2016, 03:14:36 PM
Buggybaggy have a look at this, it might be adapted to fit your coil.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/388041-67-Terminal-flat-6-3mm-0-8mm-4-x-male-with-copper-rivet-riveted-/201484538490?hash=item2ee96a127a:g:hlkAAOSwAKxWbawD
Or even something like this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-BLUE-FULLY-INSULATED-PIGGYBACK-SPADE-CRIMP-CONNECTOR-TERMINAL-2-5mm-CABLE-/140990327964?hash=item20d3adac9c:g:gGoAAOSwQTVV-Thb
Mmmm, interesting Shaggy.
Dave - They are what I have used. They work fine, but look like a bodge. There again that probably suits my buggy ;D
so the ignition module is in and all working
couple of things...
I've timed to to 28 degrees at max advance
Shaggy - when using your gun do you find the advance dial on it very sensitive, it took a while to get it set at 28 degrees.?
you have to press the trigger to get it in advance mode and then turn the dial to the required setting
then rev to 3000 and point the gun and the TDC on the pulley then alines with the case split
correct??
the buggy drives pretty well, still the odd bit of popping on lift off, is this timing? or something else?
cheers
dav
Yes you got it right, just one thing if you have a vacuum advance on it. Disconnect it from your carb and block the hole on the carb. Then recheck timing to 28°-32° you may be popping as its not advanced enough.
make sure that there are no air leaks on the exhaust system as this is a prime for popping...
H