I will be asking quite a few things soon and hope you can help...
My engine is in need of a rebuild very soon and it's quite an expensive thing to do, new engines arn't cheap
now and so after looking through it all I am quite certain I can make a reasonable job of it myself and hopefully
save a bit of money. Measuring and setting up the entire contents of the engine isn't an issue at all.
Case Savers - Helicoils Time-Serts - Threaded plugs
What's the generally acknowledged best way to do this, ie insert type,
Time-Serts - I have always liked these and have thought they are a good solution and easy to fit
http://www.crosstools.com.au/time-sert-thread-repair---helicoil-alternative.html#metricts
Threaded Plugs - I can actually make my own, do they need heads on them or are they just a straight cylinder threaded inside and out?
Thanks for anything you can say to ease the way :)
Peter
Engine rebuilds are a breeze just be methodical. Case savers are straight tubes as you say inserted with stud lock on the outer thread.
Yes, thanks Snoopy :)
After reading up in my two decent manuals there's not a lot going on in there
but measuring and getting everything together so restoring all the clearances
shouldn't be too bad, as you say, be methodical and it all should be fine.
I have had an idea that if I can I would like to do, and that's to modify and use my CB Performance
Oil filter carrier..... ie, the thing that bolts onto the pump, except I will modify it to be part of a full flow system, blocking
off the return to the pump and just making/fitting an outlet to it's body that will then attach to the case just above it,
full flowing in the process.
Somehow I can't believe they don't offer this as a design option, I can then use a standard pump and
quite like the convenience of it in that I wont have lots of oil carrying tubes hanging everywhere
Peter
Seeing as I am thinking about this.... ::)
I just had a measure up and have sketched an oil pump cover that can be machined out
of an 80mm square cube of Aluminium, it will be capable of having a spin on oil filter and have
an outlet direct to the case above, with all the oil passages being at least the same size as VW intended
and without all the issues of tiny oil gallery's (CB Performance Style) that restrict the actual
volume of oil flowing to the cases on the return path.
The idea of a proper full flow in a unit like this has always been something I have thought was able to be done.
Hopefully, if I can I shall have it anodised black or even yellow, the finished shape can be sorted once the oil passage, galleries/holes etc
have been machined.
I will see if the CNC guys can help me out.... ;-)up
I have been looking as several ways to do the oil full flow thing and may try a different
take on things using 6mm gauge plate with the standard pump oulet blocked off.
Gauge plate would allow me lots of options for welding an external pillar and routing the oil
through standard good quality fittings, exiting up to the case above.
Would anyone be able to point me in the direction of the good quality stuff in the camshaft department...
I have been looking at these.....
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Engle-W100-Type-1-Camshaft-1-1-or-1-25-Rockers-p/e6100.htm
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Engle-Lifters-Cam-Followers-Type-1-Engines-Set-p/engle-lifters.htm
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Dual-Valve-Springs-Regular-Set-of-8-p/dual-valve-spring.htm
(http://vwparts.aircooled.net/v/vspfiles/photos/E6100-2.jpg)
(http://vwparts.aircooled.net/v/vspfiles/photos/Engle-Lifters-2.jpg)
(http://vwparts.aircooled.net/v/vspfiles/photos/Dual-Valve-Spring-2.jpg)
Quote from: Peter on July 05, 2015, 09:23:15 AM
Would anyone be able to point me in the direction of the good quality stuff in the camshaft department...
No, but I can give you a warning.
SCAT are a very well known brand of CAMS as we all know, but please be very careful if typing "SCAT CAM" into any search engines :o
It may not give quite the result you were expecting - thankfully Google now filter most of that :-X
And before anyone else tries, it often takes you to some websites and images that really shouldn`t be on the net - SCAT is an American term for Poo, CAM being short for Camera, and it was not a pleasant set of images returned from a toilet cam
bleugh bleugh bleugh
You don't need to.....
I mentioned Scat Cams to the guy's at work, now they think its all I'm into.....
Jeez its a very sad place out there!
On an engine note... I shall be doing a case saving op to the stud threads using Time-Sert's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=37&v=-HqXHlgouyg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=37&v=-HqXHlgouyg)
(http://www.timesert.com/images/index/image003.gif)
Quote from: Peter on July 05, 2015, 09:43:58 AM
I mentioned Scat Cams to the guy's at work, now they think its all I'm into.....
To be fair, they probably thought that already - all you have done is confirm it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yeah.... Whatever! ::)
My lil plan so far is to maybe have the 1300 twin port out of my Beetle and use that while I
have a go at stripping my engine and looking at what needs to be done. I shall use my Sidewinder exhaust
and re jet the Weber to suit the 1300.
I have been having thoughts on the Weber jetting and would like to try something jet wise, as I have always
thought, though my bug runs well, that the primary and secondary jets are far too close in size, after a bit
more research its definitely VERY important to get heat into the manifold/carb, if its not warm enough fuel will
not emulsify properly and there will be a trade off even though the engine is running well, if I can successfully
get more heat in there I hope to be able to have primary main jet in the 125 range and the secondary in the 170 range,
the warmth inside will mean the fuel vaporises far better so the jet size drop will be accommodated due to less fuel being wasted,
I will have a better fuel consumption as a result. With the 2 barrel progressive, heat, lots of it really is the ultimate key.
Will see.... ;D
Am hoping the crankshaft is ok and I will have it reground if necessary, am wary of all the stuff available
now and have had several high end tuning people tell me to try and keep all the VW original parts that
I can, as the quality of things now is pretty dire.
The Engle W100 cam is a very basic one and should give me the power band I want, as near to standard as possible
though I shall use a set of dual (not strong) valve springs.
Does anyone know what the standard VW cam gear fitting is ? Is it riveted?
If I do this from the cases out I hope I can then improve things as time goes by, due to the cost of it all,
I have also been looking at whats involved in re fitting my head with new guides, so may do that as well,
I have a lightened flywheel already
After a lot of notes and looking into things I think most of the cost of rebuilding an engine is just the labour charge,
as Snoopy said it isnt hard, just be methodical, I have everything known to man as far measuring equipment goes
so I shall be able to do that myself, measuring the cases for straightness and journal diameter can be done manually
or on our co-ordinate measuring equipment at work ;-)up
Then its just bearing size selection and get on with it.
Peter
Peter
talking to Dan Simpson recently he is moving away from dual valve springs back to single ones, cant remember the reasoning but as with everything he says it makes sense at the time :)
Might be worth a bit of research before you commit to dual springs
Good luck
Looking forward to VW engine rebuild manual as a result of this
Dave
Dave
That's interesting, as I have been thinking about this, in my distant past with my 3/4 race 970 'S' 8)
the thinking was really that dual springs were needed to slow the onset of valve bounce at high rev's,
the W100 cam, and me, won't be going anywhere near those rev ranges so I have also noted down a set of single springs,
the other thing about dual springs is that they will accelerate cam surface wear, so maybe a set of singles should/will still work fine,
just as they have done for years....
Sometimes, trends in thing's can be very persuasive.... ;)
I shall try to do a photo album, as at last my interest is coming back, sometimes the need to use
my bug daily for other reasons can be wearing, but I have my faithful old Beetle and can in the meantime
use parts from it whilst my bug engine is being sorted out.
Peter
Quote from: Peter on July 05, 2015, 11:44:41 AM
at last my interest is coming back
That's really good news mate
Dave
Peter you have driven the Jas so have an idea how it feels and goes that has an engle 100 cam with vw pushrods and single valve springs although it has bolt up rockers as they came with the motor before it,s rebuild they are also fitted with standard vw adjuster screws rather than the swivel heads they had
That spec is just about the same as the one I have, I had a look at things and have an album
done, mainly as it helps me keep track of it all.
It may be useful to others so I though I would post it up, so far I think I can rebuild the entire case
including new pistons and barrels but excluding the crankshaft work, for under £550
http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/index.php?album=StellsEngineRebuild-Parts
Peter
(http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/albums/StellsEngineRebuild-Parts/slides/Stellas%20Engine%20Rebuild%20Parts_AutoCollage_8_Images_4.jpg)
Hopefully I just sorted out my crankshaft re-grind, if it needs it..... ;-)up
They are in Tunbridge Wells :)
http://modusengineservices.co.uk/ (http://modusengineservices.co.uk/)
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11407187_868594196541542_5939533822605970456_n.jpg?oh=baf353f6e59cb23476ed0a7a883b50fe&oe=5616FF20)
Hi Peter, single HD valve springs will be fine with an Engle 100 camshaft. This cam is designed to give max power at about 5,000 rev's. If you go for duel springs you have to get your heads machined for the second set to seat on. The standard cam gear are riveted on, If you want your engine to sound a bit like a turbo engine; you can put straight cut cam gears on it lol. Any upgrade of camshaft will need bolt up rockers and really you need to put upgraded push rods in. As your engine will not rev too high, you can either use steel ones or there are some upgraded aluminium mix ones that you can use; you do not have to go for the expensive chromalloy one's. Standard VW valve adjusters are fine with the 100 cam. Hope this helps, Rob
Hi Rob,
Yes, thanks that certainly does ;-)up
My engine sounds fine as it is so I shall leave the straight cut gearing be I think :)
I know I should know this, but bolt up rockers.... What do I have now then? My rocker assembly is the standard stuff
and I would have thought it would be fine, my engine has never seen 4500 rpm in its life ;D
I have looked at the push rod options and was wondering about that, will the standard type not be able to cope?
The cam isn't wild or anywhere near it, its almost standard other than the slightly longer valve opening time and lift...
Thanks for all the info ;-)up
Peter
Hi Peter, the spring washers on the VW rockers wear and fall in half sooner or later and then it loads the spring clips which fly off. Bolt up rockers use shims to space and give the rockers the right lateral movement but have bolts in the ends of the shafts rather than the spring clips. They also have shoulders in the middle section instead of the inner spring clips. If your rockers are good, you can just buy the bolt up rocker shafts and fit your rockers to them. If you put an upgraded camshaft in your engine, Yours will let the engine rev another 500/750rev's; it does change your driving style lol. New standard push rods might do the job if you don't use the new rev's but with the stronger springs, I would recommend upgraded push rods.
Rob
Very similar spec to when I refreshed the engine in Tango, just didn't go as far as regrinding the crank or new cam.
Just ordered some new bolt up rockers for mine as the ones on there originally were badly worn.
I have just ordered a SVDA dizzy from here http://www.simonbbc.com/distributors/4cyl-standard-electronic/bosch-powerspark-electronic-distributor-vw-beetle (http://www.simonbbc.com/distributors/4cyl-standard-electronic/bosch-powerspark-electronic-distributor-vw-beetle) albeit without the electonic set up, to replace the 009 on mine, will be interesting to see what the quality is like.
Interested to see how you get on with Modus, nice to kniow there is someone fairly local if they do a good job :)
Cheers,
Paul.
Its done quite a few miles that's all so I thought I better look at the cam as well,
I have just sent a mail to america and will see what its going to cost for the bulk of it.
I have had a reply about the crank regrind, £80... And am still waiting to hear back from Modus, hopefully
they will come back to me, they are sooooo close, almost on my doorstep ;-)up
That photo I posted of the crank earlier.....
It apparently has got to handle 8000 bhp, in Top Fuel!
I always though it would be much larger ;D ::)
Peter
Ok.....my 2p worth.....
Before you strip the engine check the end float. This will tell you an awful lot before you strip anything.
Case:-
Get it properly (and I mean properly) cleaned. This involves taking out the oil gallery plugs to allow all the oil ways to be cleaned out. Tap for threaded plugs to put back in.
Check for wear around the main bearings and for end float. If it needs recutting make sure you go somewhere that recuts both sides of the main bearing thrust face like Stateside do. Most places only recut one side.
Check that the bearing locating dowels are tight in the case and use loctite if necessary.
Check lifter bores for wear. Check cam bearing bores for size and damage.
If your engine has M8 head studs it will already have case savers fitted from the factory. If M10 then they do not, but check all the studs for tightness - if you don't need to replace them then do not take them out. My 2054 ran on stock m10 studs that I left in the case without any issues.
Steel backed bearings if you can get them are vastly superior.
Crank:-
Check for scoring and re grind as necessary. I would also look into getting it and the flywheel 8 dowelled. To be honest by the time you've had it re ground, and 8 dowelled it's not much more money for a new CB performance counter weighted crank (they are under £200) which will already have this. A counter weighted crank will always be a massive improvement and stops the crank hammering the main bearings.
Get the entire rotating assembly externally balanced (crank, pulley, flywheel, pressure plate)
Flywheel:-
You say yours is already lightened. Get it refaced if necessary, and 8 dowelled and balanced as above.
Over torque the gland nut to 400ftlbs.
Rods:-
Stock will be fine. Check little ends for wear, threads on the bolts for damage, and also check there is no evidence of shells spinning in the big ends. Match them all for weight.
Cam:-
Engle 100 will be fine. You will also need a cam gear to suit it. Use new lifters. Use double thrust cam bearings.
Oil system:-
Oil pump will need to be an early type one as all aftermarket cams use the early type pump drive. Use a new oil pump. Full flow oiling you've got covered. Fit a new oil cooler as they are impossible to clean out properly.
B&Ps:-
Don't pee about with honing and re ringing. Just replace. 1641 for a buggy is well worth considering.
Heads:-
Check for cracks between the valves before you do anything else. If they are cracked they are scrap.
Take all valves out and check guides for wear. Replace guides if necessary. Check all valves carefully and replace any suspect ones. It's good practice to replace all exhaust valves as a matter of course, but I've reused them before. Calculate CR and machine as necessary. I'd aim for 9:1 for road use on unleaded. Good gains can be had simply from a bit of die grinding inside the ports, and also port matching the inlet manifolds to the heads (you'll be surprised how bad they are as standard). Relap valve seats.
I seem to recall you saying yours were just machined 1300 heads? You will see an advantage in upgrading to 1600 heads.
Valve train:-
The stainless pushrods tubes are nice and reasonably priced. There is no need for expensive spring loaded ones.
Single valve springs are all you need. You do not need dual ones!! For an engle 100 you'll get away with stock springs, but I would suggest replacing with new as 40 year old ones can go soft.
You can get away with stock push rods if you are using stock springs, but if you use uprated springs you'll need uprated pushrods. If buying pushrods then get cut to length ones and sort the geometry out properly. If using chrome moly push rods valve clearances can be set to "loose zero". If using stock pushrods then stick to stock clearance.
Replacing the rocker shafts with bolt up ones is a very good idea. Check the rockers for wear including the bores. Throw the awful crinkle washers away and shim the rockers properly. (This is very frustrating and the shims are quite expensive as you need a selection)
I'm sure I've forgotten something but that'll do for now.....
Jon
Heavens Jon, thanks for all that, a concise and manageable list if ever I read one ;-)up
Believe it or not most of its on mine already, I must say that though I have always not looked forward to having to do this
but actually I am and it will be quite enlightening.
I have found a place in Tunbridge Wells that regrinds crankshafts, they arnt cheap though, all I need to do
is pull the engine from my Beetle and swap it over.
I will be able to then strip my engine and measure everything to see whats what.
Thanks to everyone who has offered me tools and advice, I do need it as it happens, having never rebuilt
one of these entirely, in my life.
I have read up on everything and its unbelievably straight forward, in a way it really peeees me off to see the prices that
are being charged to build these things and I have had quotes over £2000.... Hey Ho! :(
I will post stuff in here as I go....
Peter :)
Peter,
They are not difficult - you have to bear in mind it's pre war engineering. On that basis bear in mind they do have some pre war materials and tolerances. However they do have some peculiarities, and all too many are badly bodged and absolutely worn out.
There are also a few special tools that most people don't have access to. However many are actually quite easy to make. Eg I have made my own oil pump puller and tools for changing valve guides.
£80 ish is about the going rate for crankshaft regrinding. I have got away in the past with just repolishing journals that are only slightly marked with excellent results.
Bill Fisher's "how to hot rod Volkswagen engines" is an excellent read. Full of old school information. You'd be welcome to borrow my copy if you like.
Finally when it comes to rebuild time I recommend using plenty of graphogen assembly lube to protect all those new parts. Assemble the crank and cam and torque the case halves up. Then make sure the crank rotates freely and smoothly by hand with no binding before assembling any further. Keep checking this as you add parts to make sure there is nothing going horribly wrong. Finally once it's all assembled again, leave the spark plugs out and turn it over a few times by hand to make sure nothing is binding. Once refitted (leave the plugs out) fill with oil and crank it over on the starter until the oil warning light goes out. Only then refit the plugs and attempt to start the engine.
Jon
Thanks for that Jon,
Just one quick question, the double thrust issue and machining two sides...
Is that on the cases, either side of the web the bearing sits in ?
Peter
Correct. The rear main bearing should be a tight fit in the case, and has thrust faces either side of the web in the case. What happens with time is that due to the lack of counterweights on the crank, the engine slowly beats itself to death, and this allows the bearing shells to move in the case. This then means that the thrust faces either side of the web get pounded as the bearing shell frets backwards and forward. This is where the end float in a worn out engine comes from - it's actually the main bearing moving backwards and forwards in the case. You can obviously see that to properly repair this both faces (ie either side of the webs) need to be machined and an oversize (thrust) bearing fitted. Sadly many machinists only recut one side of the thrust face on the web so the bearings soon start fretting again and before you know it the end float is back.
The dual thrust cam bearing reference is due to the fact that as standard only one side of the bearings have thrust faces one them. You'll see when you strip it- it's a horrible way of doing things, and I've never understood why VW did it - the cases are machined for dual thrusts they just never fitted them for some reason.
Hope that makes sense
Jon
Thank you for all this very interesting info, it's brilliant and I am sure it will be really useful
to a few more than just me.
I think I shall copy all this detail as it's so informative and I then can go through it all.
I understand that now about the double thrust and was wondering if I had missed the point,
I hadn't and it's really just because I haven't seen any ads for under size thrust flange's in any bearing
sets I have looked at. So I will check that out.
This is all interesting because I may actually be able to have this done at work which will make the whole
thing far more enjoyable.
I shall be in touch about all those tools you mentioned at some point, my plan is to first have the engine out of the Beetle,
swap over a couple of thing's and ensure my buggy is on the road, then I can start to strip my engine and see what's going on in there
Hopefully your bug is still going strong ?
Peter ;-)up
Quote from: Peter on July 07, 2015, 06:31:19 PM
Thank you for all this very interesting info, it's brilliant and I am sure it will be really useful
to a few more than just me.
I think I shall copy all this detail as it's so informative and I then can go through it all.
Peter, can you put your summary up on your site please, we will never find it if we need it otherwise
Cheers
dave
Done!
I made a quick link in the Tools And Ideas page, it downloads a word document.
Look for 'Jon's Build Tip's....
http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/toolsAndIdeas-1.php
Jon
Don't shoot me down.... But a thought just occurred to me!
If the web in a case needed to have its thrust faces cut and to ensure the cases lasted longer
between rebuilds, would it be acceptable to minimally thrust cut both sides to clean up, then
machine (in a lathe) a new maximum underside thrust bearing's 'thrust faces..... To suit the cases.....
The case web would be in limbo so to speak as far as the standard sequence of thrust under size goes, but
have the advantage that it wouldn't have been machined as deeply...
Peter :( ::) :)
Peter,
You are absolutely spot on. That is the correct way to do it, and what stateside do.
Sounds like you've got your head around this now.
However the case is also likely to need line boring as the bearing seats are likely to have worn out of round as the bearing frets back and forth. So the bearings not only need to be other sized on thrust, but also oversized on their od, plus undersized on the id if the crank has been re ground. This is why you'll see three measurements given on oversized bearings.
Hope that makes sense.
Jon
Right!
That's what I will do then ;-)up
I can quickly make a new set of soft jaws to fit inside the bearing (exactly)
and machine the maximum under size thrust faces to suit the case, snug as a bug in a rug!, an exact fit :)
Thank you
Peter
Hi Peter, Jon is right for a performance engine, which is stripped down a lot!. But on a slightly tuned engine it is not worth the hassle. All the main bearing manufacturers and stockist have cut down a lot on what size bearings they do. So the sizes you get are in line with every recondition you do. It is hard to get bearings to fit new or first regrind crankshafts if your case has had a couple of line bores or thrust cuts. So you might be buying more than one set of main bearings to do what you might be thinking of. I now have to work out what size bearings I will need and then check if I can get them before I get the parts reconditioned, I often have to use another crankshaft to get the results I need. the other thing to think about is that the cases do not last indefinitely, they corrode and go brittle and crack.
The best thing to do is strip your engine first and see what size machining has been done already, it might be that you only have one machining left on it anyway, you say it has clocked up a lot of miles since it's last recon.
Rob
Quote from: Peter on July 05, 2015, 11:01:17 AM
I have been having thoughts on the Weber jetting and would like to try something jet wise, as I have always
thought, though my bug runs well, that the primary and secondary jets are far too close in size, after a bit
more research its definitely VERY important to get heat into the manifold/carb, if its not warm enough fuel will
not emulsify properly and there will be a trade off even though the engine is running well, if I can successfully
get more heat in there I hope to be able to have primary main jet in the 125 range and the secondary in the 170 range,
the warmth inside will mean the fuel vaporises far better so the jet size drop will be accommodated due to less fuel being wasted,
I will have a better fuel consumption as a result. With the 2 barrel progressive, heat, lots of it really is the ultimate key.
Nice to see you are still trying to get the best set up on the Weber, I am using Eurocarb's 2012 jetting at present and the Doon runs well on it.
http://www.chris-jordan.org.uk/_media/vw-weber-settings.pdf (http://www.chris-jordan.org.uk/_media/vw-weber-settings.pdf)
I did try the settings from aircooled.net in the US but could not get them to work, possibly due to lack of heat.
Chris
Hi Rob,
I completely missed your post, Yes, the first step will be to strip it out
and measure everything to get the sizes of things, then I shall have a good idea of which way I will be going.
As far as the thrust side of things goes, once I have measured it all and if I can, I shall make sure the thrust is
within limits and will machine a maximum under size bearing to suit my case. To be honest I am suprised
that approach isnt done more often as its way cheaper.
I had a rethink and all that's needed is a mandrel in the lathe and then just pop the bearing on, driving off the centre and
a pad in the tail stock I can easily clean each side of the bearing to whatever size I want making allowances for position and
to, plus or minus nothing :)
Will keep this thread posted as it goes along... :)
Peter
FYI I fitted the new SVDA yesterday that I referenced above (similar to the Aircooled.net ones but UK sourced (although I suspect Far East manufactured)), made a huge difference so will be interesting to see how it holds up with some miles on it.
Cheers,
Paul.
Chris,
Yes, after some research, listening, and trying to understand things, I really do think that the progressive
benefits from a huge amount of heat...
These carbs were used world wide by manufacturers and quite honestly are quite brilliant. We throw bits
away though in how we do things, the air boxes Ford used and the fact that front engined cars had
a nice cosy engine bay with a bonnet were very important parts of the carb system.
I have asked Beelzedub if it would be possible to make me another heat take off for my Sidewinder system,
it will be sited on the other side of the engine and halfway up the corrugated tube will be an air inlet, it will merge
with the heat rising and enter the air box above the throttle linkage, it will be
a curved leg that just enters the tube from the underside... Heat rises, so the inrush of air should keep it there
and mix with the heat in the process.
The air box will be sealed and I am getting a heat proof plastic box with a lid, it will be the right height to fit
the available space and wont melt.
I can then experiment with boxes and shall make two flanges to attach to the sides of the air box, the corrugated tubing, one tube each side,
will slip over these.
Am hoping that I will be able to get the environment in there quite hot as a result, the fuel will emulsify far better and jetting can be mucked about with.... If my mind is working, the primary jet will be far smaller than the secondary and when the two chokes start to open together the
fuel mix will be more even..... :(
Maybe.............. ;D
Peter :)
Peter
I am also looking at enclosing my K&N filter to get more heat into the system from the original VW hot air feed on my engine, I came across this no nonsense web page written by the guy's at Aircooled.net in the US which supports your comments that to run a Weber 32/36 progressive carb the more heat the better.
http://www.chris-jordan.org.uk/_media/making-the-weber-progressive-32-36-dfev-work-on-the-aircooled-vw-engine.pdf (http://www.chris-jordan.org.uk/_media/making-the-weber-progressive-32-36-dfev-work-on-the-aircooled-vw-engine.pdf)
Enjoy
Chris
Its interesting isn't it :) Thanks for that link, In have often wondered about all this and some things are starting
to make sense now.
Its amazing that the carb ever worked at all really, as modern day stuff with engine management
delivering precise fuel mix on the fly and ensuring the engines get the prefect mixture whatever the weather!...
The problem with the single carb in our VW's is the total lack of attention to heat and what it actually does.
Stell has always had a hint of a fuel smell even though she runs perfectly well, and its the
over size jets that are doing it, they need to be larger so they can deliver a mixture that will
be used, the extra fuel isnt emulsified (vapourised) and just drains down the walls of the manifold.
Getting some serious heat in there will mean that a dramatic drop in jet size can be used, as no
fuel is draining away down cold inlet walls, the heat will encourage a much higher percentage of the metered fuel
to emulsify into a useable cloud and the smaller size jet will reflect what should have been in there in the first place.
There is a VERY BIG difference between running rich in a perfect setup and wasting neat liquid fuel due to the environment being COLD.....
Peter
a strange design by vw as engines run better on cold dense air but the flat 4 means you need a long hot manifold to keep it going even on a warmish day.
if they had moved the dynamo and fan to the side you could dispense with the tall manifold tube which gets cold and causes the problems.
interestingly enough the type 3 1500N single port, single carb motor had heater pipes but the carb was offset well to the right(not central) and bolted to a very short flanged neck so the icing problem did not occur ( I guess a carb a few inches above the crankcase may have also helped)
Quotethe flat 4 means you need a long hot manifold to keep it going even on a warmish day
Yes, I should think so, it was very warm today and I put my hand on the manifold in several places, even with
heat risers and a manifold that has a cavity in its main body, the manifold was cold.
I am really thinking now that most of this can be eliminated (and keeping all these other heat sources) by just getting
really warm air into the carb, even on a 30 degree day to stem the temperature plunge specially when the engine is ticking over.
Iv'e been thinking about how I could control the outside air flowing into the air box and will make a tube about 100mm
long with 5mm or 6mm wide slots along its side covering 90 degrees around.
It seems that this would be an easy way to regulate the inrush of air... As sliding the VW perforated pipes inwards
or outwards along the tube may give me the opportunity to 'tune it...
Not sure, but its a start I guess, makes sense, I think, and will have to see what happens...
I was reading an old article today and it stated VW had measurements for how far the tail pipes were pushed into the silencer depending on the engine, this was to get the correct back pressure for the inlet heater system to work correctly and here we are fitting all types of exhausts expecting it to be perfect.
to make it worse we remove all the body work and seals around the engine compartment so all the background heat is dissipated. Inducting pre heated air should help as it cools going through the carb and manifold.
Hi Peter, I gave up on my Weber progressive carb after about 3 months because I couldn't get it running right. I thought for years that you were happy with your carb because you had got it running well. I know you are a cleaver chap and very good at making parts but I do wonder why you want to go to all this trouble when you could get a nice pair of 34 ICT's and have a great running buggy. Or is it that you just like a challenge? just cause you can, doesn't mean you have to :-\
Rob
Hi Rob,
Mmm, I like the single carb and the Weber is a very good one, all it takes is to
look a little deeper and try to find the issues and how they could be solved. Mine does run well and always has
but there are little issues that I have never really looked at. Something I have to do everyday during the course
of my work, so I guess its a challenge.
Twin carb's would take a pounding in my bug, I use it everyday on the worst
roads its possible to imagine, and when the weather's bad they would get the full force
of unimaginable sh..e and crap thrown at them, the single is nicely tucked away and
that really helps.
The/My VW Beetle engine bay is cold..... the vents beneath the rear window let heat escape
at will and the rain pours in, the Solex never did get the attention it deserved and was
just modified to overcome the problems, I think it should have had a complete redesign.
My Weber runs well but I have not attended to the real niggly little background issues, its running
rich to compensate for the over cool environment in which its working, 'inside the manifold,
there are several now who have taken the 'plunge and fitted one, they have rejetted and
found out just how nice a carb it is, but after looking into some of the issues it has with
the cold recently I have found out quite a lot more.
Chris Jordan really has made a huge effort and has documented the things he has done, all it takes is
to be bothered to read things with the want inside to actually try to understand, just buying
a set of twin carbs because its the easy option isnt on my agenda, am very happy with
the way mine is, as once you get to have a running engine its seamless, instant starting, and no hesitation
with a nice smooth response throughout the entire rev range. I am now looking at whats involved in
getting the carb to run the way it was intended, lots of main stream car makers cant all be wrong, can they!
My engine is wearing now and I expect the compression isn't what it was so I must sort
those things out first, meanwhile we go to work everyday and still running ok... Ie, no backfiring,
instant starting and a smooth response at all levels, I will make two flanges that will connect to VW
corrugated tube one either side of the air box, one will duct nothing but heat and the other will mix
air with heat and have an adjustable air flow rate, not rocket science, just a simple set of slots in the wall
of a tube, and their outlook can be lessened or made larger.
I also have my own heavier weight heat pipes at the ready, they will get hotter, flow the exhaust 'to and through'
the manifold body and I have made the exhaust flow rate through it, adjustable, exiting to air on one side...
I am a Mechanical Engineer at heart so buying something else off the shelf because its the easy option
just wont cut it, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a progressive Weber, it's unbelievably forgiving
and could work even better once all the things it REALLY needs are sorted out.
Peter
Hi Peter, I see you have set your mind on ironing out the problems with your carb and I'm sure you will ;-)up I got mine running a treat on the first choke but never got the second choke jetted right; it just made more noise and drunk the fuel like mad. The carb itself is good but like you say, it needs heat with the long vw manifolds. When it is fitted to other engines, it comes with it's own water jacket to keep it warm and they feed warm air through it when needed with thermostat valves, It might not look the best like that but it is hidden under bonnets and it does a good job. Personally I think they did the vw kit for the warm US market, rather than our cool wet climate.
Good luck with your project, I will watch your results with interest ;-)up
Rob
Many years ago I had a Fiesta 1300S that had been built by Ford for the Fiesta Challenge race series which was fitted with a progressive Weber and the air filter had a manual inlet flap on it with a summer and winter position on it. One damp autumn night I came to a halt on the M11 due to the carb icing up because I had left the flap in the summer setting. Once the ice had melted and I put the flap in the winter position so it was sucking all its air in from the collector bolted to the exhaust manifold it started and ran perfectly.
Its all about getting the right conditions, the Fiesta had a water heated inlet manifold running at full engine temperature and a fully heated air intake.
Like Peter I went for the simple option of the single Weber as I drive the buggy all year round and didn't want to have to clean the carbs and filters after driving on wet roads.
You are right Rob a lot of VW buggy parts are made for the warm and dry US market.
Chris
Full Flow oil System..... ;D :) :)
Here we go! Iv'e been looking at stuff and...
Thought I would post these up, as when rummaging around at work the other day I discovered these....
One of the things I have never really understood is why don't our after market
suppliers do a full flow filter mount, in the same sense as my 'Maxi Filter', but one
that is fitted direct to the pump, as its cover... It would provide a very convenient filter mounting and not
need all the tubing and brackets that are only available now.
I know this shape isn't ideal but its a start, I am going to get an 85 x 19 lump of Aluminium
and all that's needed is to machine the faces flat and then drill/machine an inlet hole that will
coincide with the oil pump outlet (the oil pump will be blanked off in the usual way) and then
a 15mm hole drilled lengthways down the centre of the Ali plate with another exiting at 90 degrees
into my filter housing.
The filter housing has the oil exit point on it's top face and all I will need to that is
plum it into the case just above.
My 'find' also has a gallery in it to connect to an oil pressure gauge if needs be, but the main
thing I quite like is that I can have a proper full flow oil system with out the need for lots of
tubing...
Maybe! ::)
What do you think ?
Peter
(http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/albums/FullFlowFilterFitting/slides/11.jpg)
(http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/albums/FullFlowFilterFitting/slides/4.jpg)
(http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/albums/FullFlowFilterFitting/slides/5.jpg)
(http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/albums/FullFlowFilterFitting/slides/3.jpg)
How will it fit behind the pulley?
H
Do you mean one of these ??? ??? Hunter has a point.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Hudgebuggy1/981a0b6e-055d-4701-a4d0-5aec241d8c1e_zps22c1e96a.jpg) (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/Hudgebuggy1/media/981a0b6e-055d-4701-a4d0-5aec241d8c1e_zps22c1e96a.jpg.html)
Quote from: HUDGE BUGGY on July 30, 2015, 08:16:35 PM
Do you mean one of these ??? ??? Hunter has a point.
8)
Forgot to mention still available, but not as pretty as mine 8)
http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1792
QuoteHunter has a point
And a very good one it is too ;-)up
The oil filter mount that I have will be offset to the left, and I shall machine a step if needed
in the 19mm Ali mount plate to a thickness needed to clear the pulley..
I have had a look, and there's plenty of room at least 20mm from the pump face to the back of
the tinware behind the bottom pulley, so the 19mm plate may well fit in there,
the M8 pump mounting bolts/cap screws will be counter bored so the bolt heads will be inside the plate and under flush.
It will be the same as your photo, just thicker, but should still fit ;-)up
Just remember that the pump has to be full flow or the original pump modified to suit the rerouted flow. ;-)up
I like the idea of having the filter pointing straight out at the back to the side of the pulley instead of ending up near the exhaust and in the hot air flow from the cylinders ;-)up
Chris
QuoteJust remember that the pump has to be full flow or the original pump modified to suit the rerouted flow
Yes..., I have all of that down pat, no problem, I will be blanking off the pump outlet in the usual way. I shall also be reshaping the
pump gallery slightly to smooth the flow round corners.... ;-)up
QuoteI like the idea of having the filter pointing straight out at the back to the side of the pulley instead of ending up near the exhaust and in the hot air flow from the cylinders
So do I, its also nice because it will still be inboard of my exhaust (rearwards) ;-)up
Quote from: Doon L004 on July 30, 2015, 08:47:20 PM
I like the idea of having the filter pointing straight out at the back to the side of the pulley instead of ending up near the exhaust and in the hot air flow from the cylinders ;-)up
Chris
The other thing with this type of filter housing, is has to go to the left because of the flow scenario, if installed to the right ( upside down) they don't work. ;-)up and we all know how thin filter canister material is ::), hence the aluminium filter shroud for flung up debris protection.
Quote from: Doon L004 on July 30, 2015, 08:47:20 PM
I like the idea of having the filter pointing straight out at the back to the side of the pulley instead of ending up near the exhaust and in the hot air flow from the cylinders ;-)up
Chris
Ok for cannons, but may be an issue with merged systems ?
H
Quote from: Hunter on July 30, 2015, 09:19:47 PM
Quote from: Doon L004 on July 30, 2015, 08:47:20 PM
I like the idea of having the filter pointing straight out at the back to the side of the pulley instead of ending up near the exhaust and in the hot air flow from the cylinders ;-)up
Chris
Ok for cannons, but may be an issue with merged systems ?
H
As per the CB Performance link Will not fit with Merged Headers
QuoteOk for cannons, but may be an issue with merged systems ?
Some maybe, but not all.... All you'd need to do is have a look...
Mine is fine :) ;-)up
(http://www.manxmaniac.co.uk/albums/life-SoFar/slides/66666.jpg)
No-one likes a smart*rse Pete, should fit a treat, but where's the rear cage ??? ??? ???, now don't get me on to that subject ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D :)
Quotewe all know how thin filter canister material is ::), hence the aluminium filter shroud for flung up debris protection
To be honest I have never had one get hit with enough debris to cause a burst, that said I have burst three so far ???
Mainly because I continually keep reversing into my Beetle and it's bumper rips them off 8) ::)
Quote from: Peter on July 30, 2015, 09:46:15 PM
;D :)
Quotewe all know how thin filter canister material is ::), hence the aluminium filter shroud for flung up debris protection
To be honest I have never had one get hit with enough debris to cause a burst, that said I have burst three so far ???
Mainly because I continually keep reversing into my Beetle and it's bumper rips them off 8) ::)
Mmmmmmmmmm under stand our conversation about rear view stuff now ;D
H
Just my thoughts if playing with designing an external filter . . . . .
Having changed many filters that came out sideways on my Buggy like those shown, and having recently been changing the upright ones on my T25 lump, something obvious has been noticed.
My arms are skin colour and not black and oily ;)
The sideways filter always drops oil as you unscrew it, whereas the upright ones keep it contained
I know its just a silly observation, but one worth noting ???
QuoteThe sideways filter always drops oil as you unscrew it, whereas the upright ones keep it contained
I have had mine on there for 12 years so know how they can drip, I just sling an old rag on the ground or undo it over an old washing up bowl
Thats fine :)
QuoteMmmmmmmmmm under stand our conversation about rear view stuff now
Its when I am all packed up and going somewhere, cant see much out the back, the latest rear view mirrors with a feed to a tiny camera are quite neat I think....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWSMdgifvls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWSMdgifvls)