Hi all
Looking to buy a buggy which has a king and link pin chassis.
can anyone advise how easy/hard it is to do a disc coversion on an early chassis with a king and link pin front end? I see a conversion kit on Justkampers (link below). Is this a good way to go - or should i consider changing front end to ball and joint? And what are implications here (as i was advised that king and link pin limits disk brake conversion on the front as you have to add drop spindles which lower the front end)
Any idea of costs also assuming a pro did the work
Many thanks
https://www.justkampers.com/air-cooled-vw-parts/vw-beetle-parts/braking-system/brake-discs-backing-plates-fittings/22-2880-0-front-disc-brake-kit-5-x-205-vw-beetle-1956-1965.html
Why do you feel the need for discs on something so light? Even regular drum brakes will lock up easily on the front of a buggy.
You can do a disc conversion on a ball joint front end using standard Beetle, KG etc parts but this would involve changing the whole of the chassis' frame head as well as the axle, and leave you with 4 bolt hubs.
Quote from: Manxdavid on June 15, 2019, 01:54:11 PM
Why do you feel the need for discs on something so light?
If you are going down IVA route then discs are now mandatory ;)
Good practice to use latest requirements whatever the build ;-)up
Quote from: Dave DND on June 15, 2019, 03:02:24 PM
Quote from: Manxdavid on June 15, 2019, 01:54:11 PM
Why do you feel the need for discs on something so light?
If you are going down IVA route then discs are now mandatory ;)
Good practice to use latest requirements whatever the build ;-)up
I'd never attempt to try to get an existing buggy adapted to pass IVA, it'd need a complete strip down and rebuild, but there again I'd never buy a buggy that wasn't already correctly registered unless it was just for parts.
I recon it'd be much easier to built a compliant buggy from scratch than to try to rework an oldie, IMHO of course! ;D
Quote from: EOL1975 on June 15, 2019, 11:03:59 AM
Hi all
Looking to buy a buggy which has a king and link pin chassis.
can anyone advise how easy/hard it is to do a disc coversion on an early chassis with a king and link pin front end? I see a conversion kit on Justkampers (link below). Is this a good way to go - or should i consider changing front end to ball and joint? And what are implications here (as i was advised that king and link pin limits disk brake conversion on the front as you have to add drop spindles which lower the front end)
Any idea of costs also assuming a pro did the work
Many thanks
https://www.justkampers.com/air-cooled-vw-parts/vw-beetle-parts/braking-system/brake-discs-backing-plates-fittings/22-2880-0-front-disc-brake-kit-5-x-205-vw-beetle-1956-1965.html
Just by way of help. Will be converting my king & link pin buggy to disc this coming week. Using CSP conversion kit. (Same method applies to Empi). I will post step by step procedure with photo`s. There is one must do however and that is to use a specific twin circuit brake master cylinder. More later in the week. ;-)up ;-)up
You should budjet for RPVs (residual pressure valves) for at least the front brake lines. They maintain a small amount of pressure in the lines (typically 2 or 10 psi) to stop the caliper pistons from creeping back hence increasing pedal travel. Rear brakes are usually (although not always) okay as the adjusters keep the linings close to the drums. VW fitted valves as standard in most m/cyls (single circuit!) when they brought in front discs in '67 but they don't tend to be fitted to aftermarket replacement m/cyls. This is an inexact science though and it's often a case of trial and error.
If you do find you do need RPVs just watch out for thread mismatches, VW brake lines are 10mm x 1mm pitch but a lot of US derived valves are often 1/8" npt, close but different.
Quote from: Manxdavid on June 16, 2019, 10:03:12 AM
You should budjet for RPVs (residual pressure valves) for at least the front brake lines. They maintain a small amount of pressure in the lines (typically 2 or 10 psi) to stop the caliper pistons from creeping back hence increasing pedal travel. Rear brakes are usually (although not always) okay as the adjusters keep the linings close to the drums. VW fitted valves as standard in most m/cyls (single circuit!) when they brought in front discs in '67 but they don't tend to be fitted to aftermarket replacement m/cyls. This is an inexact science though and it's often a case of trial and error.
If you do find you do need RPVs just watch out for thread mismatches, VW brake lines are 10mm x 1mm pitch but a lot of US derived valves are often 1/8" npt, close but different.
Thanks David... I would probably have forgotten to mention this. I know of a few people who have tried brake pipe into the rpv thinking it a poor item due to leakage. There are adaptors to match one to the other. It is an inexact science and what works in one case may give a differing result in another. The standard for disc system appears to be accepted now at 2psi per valve each side. It would aslo appear that the preferred fitment is 1 per side at front just after the brake line and not immediately after the m cylinder ports.
When VW fitted them as stock, like on this 1303, they screwed straight into the cylinder body.
https://s147.photobucket.com/user/David58Bug/media/New%2520Stuff/stockresidualpressurevalves.jpg.html
Thanks all
Quote from: Manxdavid on June 16, 2019, 07:08:30 PM
When VW fitted them as stock, like on this 1303, they screwed straight into the cylinder body.
https://s147.photobucket.com/user/David58Bug/media/New%2520Stuff/stockresidualpressurevalves.jpg.html
The current aftermarket valves are about a inch and a half in length, (will upload a photo). I have seen quiet a few home builds now with them fitted and the majority have been positioned at the end of the metal line at the frame head brake line support piece immediately before the flexi hose. I don`t know if it makes any technical difference as to the actual location. Quite a few builders I have talked to frown on these valves and don`t fit them. I have yet to try mine to make any realistic judgement. ;-)up ;-)up
RPV's seem to come up quite often, we have 2 buggies on front discs without them and they are fine, some info puts them as not to be used with disc brakes but then with properly adjusted drum brakes there is no need for them. A couple of psi in a line just stops the seals and run out from pushing the pads to far clear.
Always fit them as close to the master cylinder as possible, since part of their function is to reduce drainback.
Got discs all round and correct master cylinder. Bought a pair of 2 psi valves cos I thought I had too much stroke on the brake pedal. Never fitted them. My MOT man always comments how good my brake efficiency is 🤷🏻♂️
Brake efficiency is just a function of the stopping power compared to the weight of the car, nothing to do with knockback and pedal travel which is what the valves are for.
;-)up
Quote from: EOL1975 on June 15, 2019, 11:03:59 AM
Hi all
Looking to buy a buggy which has a king and link pin chassis.
can anyone advise how easy/hard it is to do a disc coversion on an early chassis with a king and link pin front end? I see a conversion kit on Justkampers (link below). Is this a good way to go - or should i consider changing front end to ball and joint? And what are implications here (as i was advised that king and link pin limits disk brake conversion on the front as you have to add drop spindles which lower the front end)
Any idea of costs also assuming a pro did the work
Many thanks
https://www.justkampers.com/air-cooled-vw-parts/vw-beetle-parts/braking-system/brake-discs-backing-plates-fittings/22-2880-0-front-disc-brake-kit-5-x-205-vw-beetle-1956-1965.html
Hi again.... Photos and description of conversion going into my build thread. Search Members Buggies "Birth Of A Buggy".
I done an EMPI conversion for all 4 brakes to disc. Pretty straight forward and the kits instructions are good.
If you upgrade to a dual master brake cylinder the residual pressure valves helps keep the pedal firm. Place them as near as possible to the outlet of the master cylinder.
I've never had issues locking them up apart from when I have really needed to stamp on them, then again that was only to see if they actually would lock up. Normal driving they are perfect. Instant, smooth and maintenance free in comparison to drums. Plus the weigh less too!
Well worth doing.
I've also done the conversion to all four wheels. Dropped spindles, standard discs and callipers fro Heritage. Tears are from CSP, awesome build quality and pretty straightforward fit, apart from replacing the rear bearings.
Dual master cylinders. Got psv's But never fitted
Quote from: apmaman on June 20, 2019, 05:38:22 PM
I done an EMPI conversion for all 4 brakes to disc. Pretty straight forward and the kits instructions are good.
If you upgrade to a dual master brake cylinder the residual pressure valves helps keep the pedal firm. Place them as near as possible to the outlet of the master cylinder.
I've never had issues locking them up apart from when I have really needed to stamp on them, then again that was only to see if they actually would lock up. Normal driving they are perfect. Instant, smooth and maintenance free in comparison to drums. Plus the weigh less too!
Well worth doing.
The kits do tend to come with a left hand drive master cylinder. The uprated cylinder they use for disks all round is actually from a Golf MK I and you can save a lot of money by buying the cylinder and then the fitting kit for it.
Quote from: apmaman on June 20, 2019, 05:38:22 PM
I done an EMPI conversion for all 4 brakes to disc. Pretty straight forward and the kits instructions are good.
If you upgrade to a dual master brake cylinder the residual pressure valves helps keep the pedal firm. Place them as near as possible to the outlet of the master cylinder.
I've never had issues locking them up apart from when I have really needed to stamp on them, then again that was only to see if they actually would lock up. Normal driving they are perfect. Instant, smooth and maintenance free in comparison to drums. Plus the weigh less too!
Well worth doing.
I considered Empi.... Half the total outlay compared to CSP... I opted for CSP for 2 reasons. One the CSP is TUV approved and comes with a TUV approval certificate which is a great help for iva. The other reason is quite some years ago I was involved with fitting a Empi kit but it was of dire construction and not fit for use in my opinion. However, although I have never seen the revised version, I suspect that from your comments that Empi must have got their act together and sorted the initial issue of the caliper flexing all over the place. (Not to be mistaken for the "floating caliper" normal movement). Empi would be the most cost effective solution. Left hand drive master cylinder... CSP have a universal unit but that is another story and will include it in my build thread.
I fitted the EMPI, but if buying again would get the CSP. The CSP the disc and hub are separate items that bolt together, where as the EMPI is one solid rotor.
Ah.... This I didn`t remember. Yes the csp is a two piece assembly. The rotors and studs are available as separate items. ;-)up
Quote from: pepsi81 on June 20, 2019, 07:14:05 PM
I've also done the conversion to all four wheels. Dropped spindles, standard discs and callipers fro Heritage. Tears are from CSP, awesome build quality and pretty straightforward fit, apart from replacing the rear bearings.
Dual master cylinders. Got psv's But never fitted
Paul... glad you agree with the build quality.... CSP rear kit..... suspect I will go down this route eventually when I have saved up some pension monies.. What was the issue with the rear bearing... just so I know in advance. Thanks P.
Hi Paul , yes The CSP kit is excellent. I decided to change the rear bearing when I stopped out the brakes. The issue was I didn't have a proper puller to extract the originals. Ended up making a bodge to extract. A real pain. The correct extractor is a multi legged affair which pulls on the inner race.
Pail
Should have guessed this... I guess that due to my age and decades of car involvement I have built up a stash of tools greater than I realise. I have, from the seventies, 3 legged pullers of 3 differing sizes. Havint the "right tool for the job" is a plus. The largest of the pullers I swear at more than any other tool. If we had three hands fine but with two hands and a 3 legged puller plus the spanner\wrench on the opposite end you just get three legs in place move a hand to the spanner and a leg falls away over and over again till the puller is locked in place ;D It`s all well and good spending on tools but it only makes sense if you are going to use them repeatedly. Another good tool is a "bearing puller of the semi circular shape designed to pull a bearing off a tight shaft. ;-)up ;-)up
Depending on the size of the puller you can put a big elastic band on it to help hold the legs on while you juggle spanners or put a zip tie on them before fitting, hold In place with one hand and pull tight with the other.
Still sometimes moves but usually works for me
Do you know what.... Never thought of this.... It would work ;-)up ;-)up
I had to 'bastardise the feet of my three legs puller to fit. Biggest issue was the distance from the bearing races to the end of the wheel spindle. My legs weren't long enough. Saying that I am a member of the northern middle earth society. Yes, I've hairy toes :D
Hi Paul... Understand this. Have done the same in the past. ;-)up ;-)up Is all the trouble getting a buggy up and running\keeping it going really worth it in the end. I hope so but at the rate I am going I suspect I will be senile by the time i`m on the road. ;D ;D
That's part of the fun. I have to send myself reminders for everything now. Not dribbling yet, probably will we we see how good a job you've done when you pass the IVA ;-)up
Quote from: Paul1953 on June 21, 2019, 08:01:45 AM
I considered Empi.... Half the total outlay compared to CSP... I opted for CSP for 2 reasons. One the CSP is TUV approved and comes with a TUV approval certificate which is a great help for iva. The other reason is quite some years ago I was involved with fitting a Empi kit but it was of dire construction and not fit for use in my opinion. However, although I have never seen the revised version, I suspect that from your comments that Empi must have got their act together and sorted the initial issue of the caliper flexing all over the place. (Not to be mistaken for the "floating caliper" normal movement). Empi would be the most cost effective solution. Left hand drive master cylinder... CSP have a universal unit but that is another story and will include it in my build thread.
I believe the flexing issue stems in the USA as they have several kits on offer with stamped or cast brackets, why anyone would buy them flimsy looking things is beyond me, but hey ho.... 'murica!!
I've only ever see the cast brackets here and they are a chunky bit of kit.
I would go CSP if I were to do it again, but the price was the deciding factor for me.
didn't know that about the golf master cylinder. I ordered my kit without them and got a dual one separately as I knew they routinely came with lhd master cylinders.
Agreed .. Cast caliper is the way to go.