Greetings fellow buggers
I have a road tax exemption query.......I hope that I'm posting this in the correct place!
I seem to be going around in circles with the DVLA regarding road tax exemption on my VW beach buggy.
My buggy followed me over to the UK a few years ago from Cape Town South Africa. I had it custom built in Cape Town in December 2002 from a donor 1973 VW Beetle by a company that has been building buggies since the 70's.
Due to the regulations set out by the South African National Traffic Information System (NATIS), all the "manufactured" beach buggies are re registered in the year of their manufacture, and all original chassis numbers are removed and the chassis are given a new number, therefore, the DVLA are going according to its re registered date of December 2002.
I have since applied for and received a certificate from Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen in Germany proving that my engine was born in 1970, as well as a letter from the beach buggy manufacturer stating that it was a 1973 VW Beetle in its previous life, as well as their company registration certificate proving that they are a registered vehicle manufacturer.
I've sent all these documents to the DVLA, but they all just get returned with a note saying that I haven't provided sufficient evidence of the vehicles date of manufacture.
So for the years it's been registered here in the UK, I've been very annoyingly just paying the road tax.
Will anyone be able to point me in the right direction to get my bug correctly dated?
There are no added modern bits, it's even still running on the original wiring loom, although last year I finally changed all four original brake drums for new ones.
Thanks in advance
Glenn
I don`t think I am the bearer of great news for you here.
My understanding is that if your Buggy has been built in 2002, and then registered as such, then the date of the original donor vehicle is no longer taken into consideration.
I am also presuming that when imported into this country that DVLA probably also gave you an age related plate ( 02? ) and if so, then you were lucky to have escaped any further SVA requirements, but it would mean that your Buggy has to follow the rules associated with 2002 vehicles - and that means paying tax.
It may well have started life as a 1973 Beetle, but it isn`t that any longer - and has been officially re-registered as such with a new identity.
Free Tax? Sorry, I don`t think even I could try and argue that one :'(
I would agree with that, as a 2002 reg what tax band is it?
on earlier registration years they have under 1499cc and 1500cc and over so you may get a lower tax with a 1300 motor.
As others have said, the car is logged as built in 2002 (52) reg. You're lucky in a way that your car has been correctly registered. As far as the DVLA are concerned 'Don't poke the bear' any further as far as registration matters are concerned as they could insist on IVA testing etc and give you a whole heap of problems.
Nice looking Beam Buggy by the way. Rare in this country, 10 kits were imported back in '99 but were slow sellers as the buggy scene was still a little quiet then.
'Don't poke the bear' any further as far as registration matters are concerned
100% agree with this.. The insufficient info response is the most common one you will come across. (Even so following an IVA certified pass with an ACT certificate !!!). You will literally tear your hair out, have a phone bill as long as your arm to say the least. Know of a guy who pushed and pushed. Did get there after 17 weeks and a visit to the DVLA engineer for checks under the then current 8 point rule. (long wheel base).
Hi guys
Thanks for all your replies, much appreciated!!
I only decided to pursue this because when I took the bug for its MOT, my mechanic suggested it as he saw it was an old girl.
After receiving the rejection (which I've included at the bottom) I called the DVLA twice over a few days, and both times I explained everything over the phone and was told on both occasions that it was a mistake, and that I should resend everything in again, as the documents I had should be enough, but as yet, I haven't sent them again thinking that I will ask around if there was another way to verify the chassis age, because in the letter below, one of the ways for it to get "verified" is via a "vehicle owners or enthusiasts club", and I just thought perhaps someone here would know something about that being one of the larger enthusiasts clubs around.
I've had only one go at this, and wouldn't mind giving it another, but if you all think it's a waste of time, then I'll forget it.
Below is part of the letter I received.........
"I have to reject your first registration application(s) because of the reason(s) given below:
You have not provided sufficient evidence of your vehicle's date of manufacture. Dating evidence is
required in order to ascertain the vehicle's origin and to allocate an appropriate registration number.
Date of manufacture evidence must be sought from the vehicle manufacturer. If the vehicle
manufacturer is no longer in exiştence or is unable to provide you with dating evidence we will
consider accepting dating evidence from an alternative reliable source (e.g. vehicle owners or
enthusiasts club). The 'List of Vehicle Owners Club' (V765/1) contains details of some vehicle
owners clubs which is available from www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/old-vehicles which may be
able to help you in obtaining dating evidence. Dating certificates provided by vehicle owners or
enthusiast clubs must contain the date/year that the vehicle was manufactured and must explain what
source information was used to determine the date of manufacture. They must also include an
explanation of how the source information was linked to this particular vehicle (e.g. either by
inspection or photographs and rubbings). Dating certificates must be originals, written in English on
letter headed paper and must clearly state the date of issue, the vehicle identity number (VIN) or
chassis number and the vehicle's make and model"
If the original chassis number has been removed then I can't see how VW or any club could prove date of manufacture and you certainty couldn't send them photos or rubbings. Sorry!
David is correct with the original VW number removed along with it's original registration number in SA you have no history pre 1992 so you have been given a 2002 reg date which is good the other option would be a Q plate but you still pay road tax.
To get you buggy body tax free your only option is buy an historic buggy UK buggy and swop the body tubs and fittings over then sell your 2002 on as whatever buggy it is.
We have been vetted and are now on the official V765 Club lists
However, as has been said - if your VIN numbers have been removed and the chassis re-assigned as a 2002, then there is nothing we can realistically do to prove its history.
If you can prove to me beyond any contestation that the chassis you have is indeed the date you think and can prove that the chassis in front of you is the same one you are referring to, then I would be more than happy to write something on behalf of the Club to help.
If you have proof of the old VIN number, and there is proof that the VIN in question relates to that chassis by way of markings - then there is a slim chance.
But . . I really don`t see how you can prove it if the numbers have been removed?
Thanks again guys
And yeah, I thought it was a bit of a long shot as it was.
But last week I did actually call the guys in Cape Town who built it to ask for the original documents etc, and he said he'd go through his records, but they've moved workshops and a "lot of stuff" is in storage he says...... So I think I'll possibly have to remind him.
So, it's not the end of the world paying road tax, it's not as if I use it every day of the year like I used to in Cape Town, LOL!!!
But at least I know where I stand, and if I manage to get the records out of him, which he says he still has, then great!!
Hopefully bump into you all when the sun comes out!!
Thanks again!
A few words following my most recent experience with DVLA and VW Museum regarding dating.
My donor beetle was an import from South Africa built originally at the Utenhage plant.
Imported to the uk and re-registered. V5C therefore shows the replacement registration with the import date as date of 1st registration. (This being a N plate).
Firstly DVLA.. during a had hoc phone call, during which I insisted my enquiry was hypothetical and not relating to an existing vehicle I was informed that both DVLA & VOSA no longer accepted any confirmation from vehicle clubs etc regarding dating of vehicles. They were insistent in the case of a Beetle donor only a "birth certificate" confirmation from VW Museum would be accepted as proof of age of the donor chassis and engine number dating.
Now.... in trying to obtain a "birth certificate" from VW Museum peoples I came unstuck. A long story cut short. They could give an estimation of the Beetle chassis age from the vin number. They could give an estimation of date of engine build from engine number stamping but they would not verify this with written certification. Why.... Utenhage built the SA Beetles under "licence" . No further involvement by VW Wolfsburg allowed due to the "political instability \ differences at the time with Europe in general. There was a major fire at Utenhage and much of the early records were destroyed.
The uppermost point from DVLA, I thought from conversations, was that a "birth certificate" would be given when the Beetle could be confirmed as a "fully original" vehicle. That is to say Proof of original vin on chassis with provable shell from original vehicle with confirmation that the current engine was the original fitted to this chassis\shell combination.
So convoluted I agree and it is my fear that pushing DVLA further could result at best in them allowing the same status that you have now and at worst revoking the registration number you have and insisting upon an engineering inspection followed by the issue of a Q plate registration which if you were given can never be swapped for anything else..ever.
You will have seen the efforts initiated by DaveDnd & others to resolve buggy acceptance etc with DVLA and hopefully when the dust settles so to speak DVLA\DVSA will have a permanently resolved path for buggy owners to follow and all peoples within DVLA organisation will be on the "same page" and the term beach buggy will be accepted.
Hey Paul1953
Thanks for that!!
Very interesting, your so right about them needing to be "on the same page", it actually makes me want to tip toe very quietly and quickly away and pretend that I didn't say or do anything ;D
I'll let it lie!!
Because as I mentioned earlier, it's not taxed the whole year round anyway. Besides...... I bet you a million bucks that the DVLA are desperately trying to figure out a way to tax all vehicles again...... Look what they've done with the EVs.
Cheers
;-)up
Look what they've done with the EVs.
Yep
Bit off topic I know but I am very familiar with the Lancaster area. Spent a lot of time in my contracting days at Heysham when power station no 2 was being built. Have you ever had your buggy across the mud flats of Morcambe Bay?.... bit scary that would be not knowing if you would get across or disappear forever ;D ;D
Actually, my bug is covered in mud right this minute sitting in the garage because of the Morecambe mud, I actually apologised to it on Tuesday that I hadn't giving it a bath!
I won't attempt going across, as there's plenty of area to make a fool of one's selves without having the risk of disappearing ;D
Thanks again guys for clearing things up for me, I'm not going to bother with it anymore.
Quote from: Glenn on January 25, 2018, 09:41:44 AM
Thanks again guys for clearing things up for me, I'm not going to bother with it anymore.
Not sure I would give up just yet . .
If you can get something official from Cape Town indicating the original VIN number that they removed in favour of the new one that was put in place, then that would be enough to start the ball rolling and a case could be constructed around that bit of crucial information - the rest would be quite easy.
But until that document comes to light . . . Pay the road tax ;)
Oh......?
I could probably get the original chassis number, but I'm wondering if the original chassis number won't correspond to my engine, because all the engines go to get overhauled before going into the new buggies, and years ago I remember seeing a shelf full of newly reconditioned engines.
Do you think this would pose another problem?
Knowing the number is not enough. You need some official documentation to show that the chassis number was replaced by another, else there is nothing to prove that any chassis number you know actually belongs to the physical chassis you have under the Buggy.
There is still a huge potential for this to go badly wrong though.
Although you may end up being able to prove that your car is indeed "old" and worthy of free tax, there is still the problem of a declaration that the car was constructed in 2002. Now because this was done in another country, and there is documentation that this has been carried out to the correct standards and requirements of that country, DVLA have allowed it to be imported here with an age related plate and no further questions asked.
However, you must remember that if you wish to dramatically alter its identity whilst its in the UK from the one DVLA have newly assigned, then they may well wish to inspect the car and would then understandably question why it may not conform to full 2002 UK spec, and I would be highly surprised if the question of SVA/IVA did not then raise its head.
I`m stunned you managed to import the car whilst retaining a 2002 plate, and whilst there is a very slim chance of getting it re-registered with an older age related plate, for the price of a tax disc each year, I do not think its worth the risk.
At the end of the day, your car is indeed CORRECTLY registered, and this can only be a good thing - Now get out in the sunshine and enjoy it ;-)up
Could the original vin number be traced via the old SA reg number anyway? Just a thought. :-\
Glen... I have, and sure you have also, seen groups of people plodding out towards the sea despite all the warnings and they seem amazed as within seconds of stepping on the murky bits they are knee deep and still going down. :-[ :-[
Yeah Dave
It all sounds like far too much of a serious waste of time...... I'd already given up until you said "Not sure I would give up just yet . ."
LOL ;D
So yeah, life's too short, as I mentioned, it's not taxed the whole year anyway, this was only suggested to me to try.
And Manxdavid, that would be another joke, I'm sure it could if the documents could be found. The guys in Cape Town do have records apparently, but heck..... That just sounds like even more beer time wasted!! So that's it.... done, to be honest, I don't even remember what the tax is for the year, all I know is that's it's more than my 2 litre diesel ;D but then they send a cheque for the balance when I stick it on a sorn.
And Paul1953, I actually haven't seen anyone sinking knee deep in the mud or doing anything stoopid in the muddy bits..... Besides me of course.
But I keep saying that I can't make too much of a peanut of myself up here because I think I'm the only clown this far north with a beach buggy
😂🤣
Quote from: Glenn on January 25, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
because I think I'm the only clown this far north with a beach buggy
😂🤣
There are quite a few would regard you as a southerner
Oh?
Not according to the members on here. In this area it looks like the closest bug to me is Manchester?
That's why I'm really keen to meet up this year at a few get to getheres.
We have s fair few Scots registered and active on here.
Many people don't put a pin on the map
Quote from: Doon L001 on January 26, 2018, 06:34:24 AM
Quote from: Glenn on January 25, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
because I think I'm the only clown this far north with a beach buggy
😂🤣
There are quite a few would regard you as a southerner
Oh I get it now why you said that ::)
I meant in the Lancaster and Morecambe area, because if a buggy is seen playing silly buggers where it shouldn't be....... It'll be difficult to blend in, because the closest bugg to me is hours away
Quote from: Doon L001 on January 26, 2018, 07:49:16 AM
We have s fair few Scots registered and active on here.
Many people don't put a pin on the map
It might be getting off the topic now for this topic, but how do you add a pin on the.......I've tried a few times, clearly I'm missing something
Something has just occurred to me regarding S\A Beetles. All the ones I have seen have not had a VIN number stamped on the tunnel top or anywhere else on the chassis. It is therefore possible that your chassis has never had a vin number on it. I can say that in my chassis there was no evidence whatsoever of a VIN number ever been removed and replaced by "blank metal". No heat markings to the metal top or bottom no ground weld markings top or bottom. No pin holes, dimples etc top or bottom. No evidence of the paint not being original. Is there any one on the forum who can say definitively whether Utenhage stamped some of them or not?
With reference to Vin number stamping & DVLA and speaking from a little experience... In order to legitimately "stamp a VIN number you firstly need a written authorisation from DVLA which gives the number.
You need to present this to an approved party who carries out the stamping to the required standard. As you can guess this is not a cheap process.
I have tried contacting Utenhage directly and South African buggy clubs. The unfortunate fact is that Utenhage records have immense gaps and I am told directly by the individual who heads the VW Museum records "department" that there is little to no inter-communication with Utenhage with regard to past records. If you are a young person you may find this strange however it is not.
If anyone on the forum has had any actual experience with the SA plant or SA bugs and has been more successful than I have in retrieving written confirmations of build dates, engine number dates, vin number confirmation etc I would be truly grateful for any advice as with regard to iva the engine emissions test requirement are now very specific and degree of testing is progressive in complexity. Jan 1975 is the cut off date for "smoke test only" After this date the testing for emissions become more complex leading up to the need for a cat with lamba sensing etc. (Don`t ever use a Mexico Beetle from the nineties etc for a donor).
It would seem that at actual presentation to VOSA of a VW air cooled engine and the examiners interpretation of an "original" engine is a minefield.
Yip you're correct!
Don't bother trying to find any records from Uitenhage, everything was on paper, which probably no longer exists. My chassis never was stamped, they originally had 3 plates on the vehicle stating the chassis number.
All the components were sent to South Africa in "those" days, then constantly unpacked onto a shelf as they constantly arrived.
So as they were being assembled the relevant components were removed from the shelf. So by the time they got to the 70's, they were heading towards the back of the shelves, that's why the 70's beetles down there are made up from pre 56 parts.
And I'm South African...... So I can well believe it..... ;D
I struggled like made last year to find all the correct parts that I wanted to replace. If I remember correctly, my front drums are '48 and my rear drums are' 56, if I get hold of the chap Rob, at GSF Car Parts (he was SOOOO helpful) where I bought all the parts, he would know. Bearing issues as well, because he kept going in circles (excuse the pun) trying to figure out what I needed, I don't remember how many things I posted back to him.......... It was really fun and games, but all sorted now!
Wondering if its worth contacting one of our members on here, Pine - as he is based in Sedgefield, South Africa
May be able to throw some extra light on things :-\
Glen.... Cheers re-Rob... ( I started secondary School ...King James 1st Grammar in 1964 and in those days History was a big thing with regard to teaching. I still remember well the events from say mid 1800`s with the British involvement in the Nile wars up to the 1900`s and the subsequent issues between South Africa and Europe, especially the UK. Shocking how the UK simply dumped S.A. in an "hour of need". Guess that`s politics for you).
Dave... Thank you I will have a word.. Weird world isn`t it? I live about 10 miles from the UK Sedgefield, (Tony Blair`s ex- constituency) ;-)up ;-)up
Quote from: Dave DND on January 26, 2018, 10:05:38 AM
Wondering if its worth contacting one of our members on here, Pine - as he is based in Sedgefield, South Africa
May be able to throw some extra light on things :-\
You could probably find him on Facebook if you go there, Adriaan Pienaar.
Well I'm already passed it now.... I'm seriously not bothering any more wondering if I can get Bugtoons properly dated.
As soon as the weather arrives (hopefully ;D ), I'll tax it as before while sitting in it in the driveway then drive off!
Hi all. So confused over the new MOT regs. Mine was built in 71 and registered as a buggy. So think I should be ok. Will feel nd out in July when the MOT is due!!
M
Quote from: tansu on May 17, 2018, 12:48:02 PM
Hi all. So confused over the new MOT regs. Mine was built in 71 and registered as a buggy. So think I should be ok. Will feel nd out in July when the MOT is due!!
M
s
You will be ok 71 is historic tax free already and from the 20th when your tax is next due you can now apply for an mot exemption if allowed but if you want just go on getting it done you can.
As Snoopy says, as long as the car has Historic tax and has had no 'substantial changes' done to it in the last 30 years then it can be classed as a VHI and you can be MOT exempt if you choose to be. Romour has it that you may have to hand an MOT exemption form (currently V122) in when you tax the car along with your V5C and you'll be issued with a replacement V5C from Swansea stating VHI but we'll find out the truth soon.
Ok thanx. What happens as my MOT runs out before the tax??
Quote from: tansu on May 17, 2018, 06:40:39 PM
Ok thanx. What happens as my MOT runs out before the tax??
MOT it as normal and I think you are tax free anyway on that one aren`t you ? :-\
Yep. Tax free.
Any good mot garages around Portsmouth?
As long as its on Historic tax and insured just declare SORN on it which cancels the tax, then re tax tax it declaring it MOT exempt.
Quote from: Manxdavid on May 17, 2018, 10:15:07 PM
As long as its on Historic tax and insured just declare SORN on it which cancels the tax, then re tax tax it declaring it MOT exempt.
I would be careful using SORN at the moment, as the Classic Car Brigade seem to think this is how DVSA are calling their "restored and rebuilt" cars into question, and if so, it can render the MOT exemption null and void and there is now also a question mark over the retention of VHI status if this happens.
Be careful
I've seen no evidence of DVSA being that smart. The rumour mill and conspiricy theories roll on though... :-\