Once upon a time in Britain there was a growing industry that provided kits for converting rusting relics into fun and exciting Kit Cars, using GRP body tubs and a whole host of replica and aftermarket fittings and accessories. Building these cars provided enjoyable involvement and spare-time occupation for thousands of people, and driving them around on summer weekends was a fun activity that harmed no-one. Many years ago, there was an attempt to kill that industry stone dead, and it was very nearly successful
Every car built had of course to pass an MOT test, that ensured that it was mechanically safe and met all statutory requirements regarding lighting, seat belt anchorages, structural strength etc. etc. Then in 1998, for no apparent reason at all, the DVLA introduced the 'Single Vehicle Approval' (SVA) test to determine the road worthiness of a vehicle not otherwise type approved within the UK, on a one off basis. This applied to very low volume production vehicles, personally imported cars and Kit Cars. In 2009 the 'Individual Vehicle Approval' (IVA) began replacing the SVA and is now the standard used for the majority of vehicle types previously tested with the SVA test. Standards required are more stringent and test fees are considerably higher.
The tests involve conformity with a host of requirements such as 'minimum radius' edges, type approved steering wheels, etc, etc, and the regulations are being ever futher tightened to bring all those existing kit cars that are 'incorrectly registered' – that is, still retain the base 'donor' car identity – into the net, even if they have been on the road perhaps for years, been taxed and MOT'd etc..
There are many rules that need to be adhered to, but here lies the problem - the IVA rule book is written in the most dreadful format and does not make for sensible reading. But do not fret, because we now have an ever growing number of experts that have successfully been thorugh the IVA process and are here to help and guide you where we can. Together we can, and will, beat them.
;-)up
Please keep questions here strictly to IVA / SVA issues, and post any other help questions in the relevant section of the forum.
8)
Dave.... just to say that I could not have put it better than the above statements.
I am waiting quietly in the background to see if the government announces further details of the planned changes to home built, quantity manufactured kits and in particular "heavily modified" production vehicles. The announcements were put on hold as soon as Teresa May stated she was preparing for a general election and the outcome of the election was known. The plans would seem to be still in abeyance.
Hi Dave. My buggy was built in 86 and has a Q plate, is this different in any way now, i.e desirable, undesirable?
Quote from: blarney trouble on December 22, 2017, 04:45:50 PM
Hi Dave. My buggy was built in 86 and has a Q plate, is this different in any way now, i.e desirable, undesirable?
My personal opinion is that Q plates are brilliant - yes, you pay tax, but you are pretty much exempt from any of the crap being thrown around
I reckon its a distinct advantage these days
if you have a Q plate how much is the road tax....??????
Mine is £235 as it is above 1499 cc under that about £175 without checking on DVLA site.
Also worth pointing out that not every new Buggy build will require an IVA test. Some of our members have approached this in different ways and hopefully their stories and pointers may be inspirational to you
from Jim73vw
No problem, I did share my good news and highlight an article I did on this in Complete Kit Car when I received my new log book:
http://www.beachbuggy.info/index.php/topic,6522.msg67940.html#msg67940
though I appreciate not everyone will want to buy a back issue. However - it is a good read, as is the whole magazine, and my article there has nice pictures of the form, supporting evidence sent and how the revised log book looked when returned.
I have extracted the bulk of the article text below - appreciate some comments may be less relevant to buggy readers here, but rather then re-edit I hope this is of benefit. Obviously if the club wants to use the article from the magazine as evidence to DVLA of how the system can be used correctly, and has been applied to LWB variants by their 'Kit and Rebuilds' team I would recommend the full article is sourced and provided. Back issues can be ordered via the Complete Kit Car website, and there is currently stock of this issue - April 2015 Issue 99. http://www.performancepublishing.co.uk/back-issues/page/3/
Plug over ;)
Article body below:
Having completed my beach buggy build the next step was to ensure the vehicle was correctly registered with DVLA. I had chosen the long wheel base Apal shell as I knew this would avoid the need for expensive IVA testing, but still wanted to ensure the vehicle was correctly identified on the log book (V5).
The rise in popularity of kit cars which are re panel/body solutions using a single donor is clear looking over recent issues of this magazine. In all of these cases, even if the primary donor remains mechanically unmodified there will be a need to update the V5. With the increase in use of ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) VOSA, DVLA and the Police can check a vehicle's identity when on the road. If the vehicle does not match the description on the log book this is sure to raise questions, which are best answered by updating your log book, rather than at the roadside. Such updates may also assist with insurance for your kit and also with future resale values.
With many local DVLA offices having closed in recent times I was not fortunate enough to be able to visit an office to discuss the process so instead turned to the internet where a wealth of material exists.
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration
Many club forums also have valuable information on the process, and may offer guidance for your specific kit. If considering a new kit it is also worth discussing this aspect of the build with the manufacturer to understand if they have liaised with DVLA to make relevant changes to log books for their own demonstrators or other customer's cars.
Reviewing the guides on GOV.uk I could see that my buggy build fell into any one of the following categories, depending on how the guidance is interpreted:
• Kit converted vehicle
• Radically altered vehicle
• Rebuilt vehicle
In each case the instructions are the same – to complete form V627/1 'Built Up Vehicle Report' though the information given with regards to retaining your donor registration number does vary:
Kit Converted Vehicle
According to the supplied definitions a kit-converted vehicle has had:
• a kit of new parts added to an existing vehicle, or
• old parts added to a new kit
The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit.
I felt this best applied to my buggy conversion, though my bodyshell was purchased second hand and is a 1970's kit no longer available. For many of the new kits on the market, such as Ferrari replicas and alike this seems to be the best match. The advice states you may keep a vehicle's original registration number if you can prove you've used 2 original unmodified major parts:
• chassis (car or light van)
• monocoque bodyshell (car or light van)
• frame (motorbike)
Radically altered vehicle
Radically altered vehicles are described as vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but aren't kit conversions. Given the age of my bodyshell I was using, and that all other parts were sourced by myself and not from a kit I felt this category may be applied by DVLA. This would also apply to some of the unique one off builds/modifications CKC have featured over the years.
DVLA uses a points system to decide what registration number to give a radically altered vehicle and the requirements are more involved than the Kit-Converted Category. To keep the original registration number your vehicle must score 8 or more points as summarized in the accompanying table. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.
Part Points
Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5
Suspension (front and back) - original 2
Axles (both) - original 2
Transmission - original 2
Steering assembly - original 2
Engine - original 1
DVLA advise you won't be able to keep your vehicle's original registration number if one of the following applies:
• your vehicle scores fewer than 8 points
• it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
• there's evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie 'cut and shut')
If the criteria are not met a Q plate is likely to be applied. Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a 'Q' prefix registration number.
Considering my buggy build if these criteria were applied I was able to score 13-14 points 11-13 points depending on interpretation. My vehicle has a replacement front axle as the original was corroded. This was a bolt on replacement part, so not a structural alteration. Similarly the donor engine had been replaced, but again with a correct unit from another 1970's beetle, and of the same size. These were points I wanted to ensure were conveyed when completing the form to avoid any misinterpretation of the changes.
Rebuilt vehicle
Less definition is given on the GOV.uk website regarding what constitutes a rebuilt vehicle, but I felt this category could apply to a rescued kit that we all too often see appear on ebay. As my donor vehicle was bought in a stripped down state I felt it was important to consider this category also. A similar points system is applied for these enabling you to keep a vehicle's original registration number if you can prove you've used:
• the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
• a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
• the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
• a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)
You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.
For cars or light vans:
• suspension (front and back)
• steering assembly
• axles (both)
• transmission
• engine
For motorbikes:
• forks
• wheels
• engine
• gear box
With these different categories in mind I set to completing form V627/1.
Much of the first page of the form relates to motorcycles or trike conversions, with only 6 rows of the table to complete for the following components if notifying or a car alteration:
Chassis/Bodyshell
Axles (both)
Transmission
Steering assembly
Engine
Suspension (front and back)
For each component you are required to supply a serial number/ID number if available (most likely to apply to any new parts), confirm origin (registration number of donor vehicle), the make of the component and verify if receipts are available. For a simple rebody conversion all rows would most likely confirm a single donor.
In my situation I had to advise of a replacement front axle and replacement engine. It is important to note I transplanted another period correct same capacity engine. As my vehicle was already registered as a historic vehicle (tax exempt) engine changes have less significance. If you are paying road tax on your vehicle a change in engine capacity may lead to the taxation class being revised. For the new parts fitted I also enclosed receipts.
On the rear of the form the following sections need completing:
Original Parts not used – stating how they were disposed of
I had kept a log of all parts bought and sold through my build, and had sold the majority of unwanted donor panels. I supplied a spreadsheet detailing this, as well as receipts for online sales through ebay etc. I advised that the corroded axle was disposed of at my local council recycling centre. If you are selling any parts of your donor I would recommend a similar log and receipts. Also request receipts for any scrap metal sold as this is a particular area of focus currently.
Any other information/Additional documents produced
Here I summarized the build, highlighting the kit shell used was a long wheel base body, and simply a rebody removing the original bodyshell. I stressed here that the core mechanical components remain as per a standard VW beetle and reconfirmed all of the original parts retained. This section also asks you to verify the year/s of the build and who completed the build. If you have outsourced to a professional builder receipts will be required.
Additional notes or comments
This section is provided for any other background information that is relevant. I used this to explain the origins of the replacement parts, stressing they were like for like OEM style replacements. I also referred to my build diary which formed the CKC Running Reports. As I didn't have a manufacturers receipt for my bodyshell I confirmed the age and name of the buggy shell.
For a simple rebody this form accompanied with relevant receipts should be more than sufficient to convey all required information. In my case I chose to send a covering letter with the form which summarized the additional information provided. In my case I provided the following:
1. Running Report Articles from Complete Kit Car (18 in total)
(useful to show in picture form that the base chassis is not altered)
2. Receipt for purchase of donor beetle
3. Receipt for purchase of Apal buggy shell
4. Spreadsheet detailing the items sold from the original beetle
5. Receipt for sale of original bodyshell
6. Extract from the Dune Buggy Handbook confirming Apal shell details
(used as no manufacturer information available for kit – if fitting a new kit supplier specifications/instructions would suffice)
7. Article from Belgium Apal website confirming Apal shell details
8. (used as no manufacturer information available for kit – if fitting a new kit supplier specifications/instructions would suffice)
9. Receipt for replacement beetle front axle (original version corroded)
10. Summary of engine codes for VW beetles to validate previous replacement engine code
I then sent off this information and waited for news from DVLA. It is important to note that correspondence of this type should be sent to K&R (Kit and Rebuilds),DVLA
SA99 1ZZ
In my case after a fortnight I received a new log book back with my vehicle details updated. This included a statement on the front page, Section 3 stating 'Rebuilt – assembled from parts some of which or all were not new'. This is a permanent note on the log book which cannot be removed, and rightly informs future purchasers of the car's origins.
The vehicle make (previously Volkswagen Beetle) was also changed to read 'Volkswagen Buggy'. I was not required to present the vehicle for inspection though the DVLA do advise that changes to any of the following may warrant an inspection:
• wheel plan
• body type (DVLA give a body type description based on the vehicle's external appearance)
• vehicle identification number (VIN)
• chassis number
• frame number for motorbikes
•
Whilst I didn't receive any written feedback on the information provided my opinion is that by providing as much information as possible relevant to your build you will increase your chances of a routine V5 update and avoid the need for formal inspection. That said I have spoken to other Long Wheel Base Buggy builders who have presented their buggy for a brief inspection following submission of V627/1 resulting in the issuing of a revised V5. I hope this guide is useful to anyone contemplating a similar style build, and reassures that these changes can be made painlessly if organised with your build diary.
Hope this helps,
All the best,
Jim
Club Nova Member
SDBC Member
GRRC Member
T5 camper
72 Apal LWB buggy
Subaru based Nova kit car
Chris Jordan also has some detailed help with regards to what parameters DVLA use for a conversion, because it could open the doors for those wanting to rebody a Beetle as a kit without being worried by IVA
Have a look at the details and PDF's on his web site regarding how he registered his Doon in 2005.
http://www.chris-jordan.org.uk/registering-the-long-wheel-base-doon-in-2005.html
;-)up
Whilst I didn't receive any written feedback on the information provided my opinion is that by providing as much information as possible relevant to your build you will increase your chances of a routine V5 update and avoid the need for formal inspection. That said I have spoken to other Long Wheel Base Buggy builders who have presented their buggy for a brief inspection following submission of V627/1 resulting in the issuing of a revised V5. I hope this guide is useful to anyone contemplating a similar style build, and reassures that these changes can be made painlessly if organised with your build diary.
Jim... Well done with this post.. Been down this route in the past myself...... You spent the time to type all this up and post it. I would like to comment on the paragraph above because there is never going to be a time when DVSA, (DVLA), have a system that is manned by individuals "programmed in their head" to deal with every application in exactly the same manner so the more info you give the easier your journey has to be.
Now then to anyone contemplating a long wheel base conversion of a Beetle read Jim`s post through thoroughly. It really isn`t "over the top" at all.
I too have spoken to others who have not gone to the detail Jim`s application shows and had a V5C updated "eventually" but the word "eventually" is the operative one.
The inspection, if you have to have one, and this is no longer imperative for each and every one, is not very different to an MOT inspection but the DVSA appointed engineer`s word is final.
Why is what Jim states really important in my view.... Well can I use the IVA examination as an example of DVSA "ruling the roost" with regard to the issue of re-registration, document update etc. (I posted very early on when I joined the forum that for IVA keep every single piece of paper relating to parts purchase etc.... not for IVA but for DVSA). Wouldn`t you think that after a 4 to 5 hour extreme examination by VOSA and receiving a "pass" and being issued with the ACT certificate you would be "home & dry"... Your vehicle has passed the checks and has been pronounced fit for use on the road in any EU country. Surely off goes your certificate plus the application form plus the fee to DVSA and back comes your registration number and approval to obtain legitimate number plates. Surely all they need to do is record the ACT certificate. Do their check with Interpol to see the original Beetle is not recorded stolen etc, (Yes I do mean Interpol).
Not so.. they require all that Jim states. There are examples of amateur build vehicle owners waiting up to 17 weeks to complete this process as DVSA asks for document after document. (Times are changing).
So forget IVA..... But if going to the extent Jim has covers all DVSA can possibly think to ask you for and you get your amendment\s done and no check required on a long wheel base build it all makes sense to me.
All the best Paul :D :D
Nope.... You need the mountains of paperwork etc.
Hopefully when all this is sorted there will be a DVLA required documentation list for lwb V5 changes then builders will have a set route to follow rather than the hit and miss we have now.
The new build swb route is already set with IVA compliance.
Hi Dave and thanks for your reply to my original question.
I am thinking of selling my buggy as I just don't get the time anymore, too many other money pit projects.
The log book states.... make - Californian, body type - convertible, 1986 on a Q plate. nowhere does it mention VW or saloon.
What I'm asking is- does this make it more desirable for potential builders of buggies or kit cars and therefore more valuable? ;) ;)
Quote from: blarney trouble on February 08, 2018, 11:37:32 AM
Hi Dave and thanks for your reply to my original question.
I am thinking of selling my buggy as I just don't get the time anymore, too many other money pit projects.
The log book states.... make - Californian, body type - convertible, 1986 on a Q plate. nowhere does it mention VW or saloon.
What I'm asking is- does this make it more desirable for potential builders of buggies or kit cars and therefore more valuable? ;) ;)
It does to certain people I found out as a Q is technically a blank canvas so can be anything as long as convertible however unsure about yours as make is Californian also draw back is you pay tax I too have a 1986 orange Q plate Californian however is make vw convertible
Awkward one really as Californian was never a make of car, it was just the model of a body kit made by Limited Edition Sports Cars Ltd. Another DVLA anomaly. :-\
The way I see it is this . .
It does not personally matter to me what my Buggy is called on paper.
DVLA are incapable of correctly naming a Buggy on paper.
So . . The only people that are really bothered by what it says on paper are the Feds by the roadside with a camera, or following you with ANPR.
If the vehicle that they are following is unusual (ie: a Buggy) and the ANPR request comes back with something unusual (GP / Sidewinder / Buggy / Californian) - then that is considered to be a match and they will probably leave you alone.
Quote from: Dave DND on February 08, 2018, 05:04:11 PM
The way I see it is this . .
It does not personally matter to me what my Buggy is called on paper.
DVLA are incapable of correctly naming a Buggy on paper.
So . . The only people that are really bothered by what it says on paper are the Feds by the roadside with a camera, or following you with ANPR.
If the vehicle that they are following is unusual (ie: a Buggy) and the ANPR request comes back with something unusual (GP / Sidewinder / Buggy / Californian) - then that is considered to be a match and they will probably leave you alone.
My thoughts entirely a specific body name is fine on any shell it just says it is something different from a beetle
Found this on a FaceAche page, and thought it might be of interest maybe
Bob Pike DfT - Road Vehicles Improving Air Quality and Safety - Consultation Response
Below is the Air Quality Consultation Document link, and all links to respond to it as well, the main bulk is a guideline for your response if you need it, covering why their document is totally unworkable and the points they need to consider before implementation.
This consultation closes on Friday 2nd March!!!!!!
DfT -Road Vehicles Improving Air Quality and Safety – Consultation
https://www.gov.uk/.../road-vehicles-improving-air...
DfT -Road Vehicles Improving Air Quality and Safety - Consultation Response
Answer Question 10 as NO,detailing reasons why as below
The notified list does not contain any clubs to do with kit cars which will be majorly impacted but the Road Safety Markings Association have? This does not seem to be a "consultation" but a "notice of intent"because of its timescale.
As much as the major companies would wish us to renew our car every 3-5 years, kit cars and particularly radically built vehicles mostly reuse second hand parts, by recycling like this it is far more environmentally friendly than buying new parts off the shelf which creates pollution in manufacture.
The timescale given in your document is completely unworkable as many hobbyists (even some kit car companies) take years to complete a project.
Mentioned in 4.7 is that vehicle convertors can carry outworks and it would be prohibitively expensive to upgrade the engine, as long as he maintains the existing emissions on the engine, should this not also apply directly to kit cars if not more so due to expense?
In 7.8 the car or van categorisation, it is stated that you are taking a "common sense" approach if you cannot determine the prime function of a vehicle. Why is a similar approach not being used for a person building a classic style kit car and their engine choice?
4.10
Reconstructed classic cars do not require IVA?
The sensible route is for the installed engine to have an age appropriate emission test as it currently is now. Which is the same as all the classic and historic vehicles currently on the road with the same engines.
This is the only sensible and workable legislation to have.
4.11
Most kit cars are built to a style of decades past(Caterham, Cobra), which by definition includes the drivetrain, this stops this stone dead.
Kit cars based on a VW Beetle with an original engine will never ever pass the proposed emission tests, so again this stops stone dead.
This also unworkable as the emission level limits will only ever get tighter which means if you are taking a number of years to build you will permanently be "chasing your tail" to meet the "current" level in place at the time of test.
4.12
Reconstructed classic cars do not require IVA?
Define a "broadly unchanged" appearance, as early separate chassis cars when coach built were vastly different on the same chassis, which is the basis for a vehicles identity.
Engine capacity, is that within type or as the individual vehicle left the factory?
4.13
A 25 year old engine as suggested will not meet current emission levels
The cost of using an engine from the last 25 years which does meet current emission levels will be out of reach for many due to cost and a lack of understanding of ECU's, we are engineers not computer programmers.
Many more modern engines with ECU's will not function without being in their original chassis or without the airbag and ABS systems in place, which cannot be in place for a BIVA test. There are no workable alternative ECU's available.
Consultation Replies to :-
Email to: ivs.consult@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Or post to:-
Robert Lloyd-Smith
Zone 1/33,Great Minster House
33Horseferry Road
LONDON
SW1P 4DR
Also, extra responses can be forwarded to :-
Head of DfT - Chris Grayling
chris.grayling.mp@parliament.uk
Other members of DfT
https://www.gov.uk/g.../organisations/department-for-transport
Postal Address for DfT :-
Department for Transport, Great Minster House, 33 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P4DR
Manage
Road vehicles: improving air quality and safety - GOV.UK
gov.uk
Bob Pike The above is a response from the NSRA to provide a basis for letters/emails we all need to send to the appropriate Government departments..
The uk gov hyperlink don't work :(
I am so sorry about that, I copied and pasted into google and it does, so try this one https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety
Evening all, my V5 says "vw convertible" it was a 1972 1500 beetle. It is Tax exempt but is it MOT exempt? I don't think it is as it has been modified, but others say it is. I'd have it checked regardless.
Any ideas?
Colin.
1972 registration date is mot exempt by the printed date.
Quote from: snoopy on January 22, 2019, 07:44:39 AM
1972 registration date is mot exempt by the printed date.
Incorrect - that rule does not apply as our Vehicles have been Radically Altered in their Visual Appearance
The Registration date on your V5c DOES NOT entitle you to MOT Exemption Status
MOT Exemption is awarded upon the DATE THE BUGGY WAS BUILT and NOT the age of the Donor Chassis
Full details can be found here
http://www.beachbuggy.info/index.php/topic,429.msg120024.html#msg120024
Quote from: Ralphypants on January 21, 2019, 11:48:33 PM
Evening all, my V5 says "vw convertible" it was a 1972 1500 beetle. It is Tax exempt but is it MOT exempt? I don't think it is as it has been modified, but others say it is. I'd have it checked regardless.
Any ideas?
Colin.
If its a buggy then l only be mot exempt if it was turned into a buggy 30 or more years ago and has not been substantially changed since then.
Apologies for the double post, but this is important
Now that our Club has been Officially Recognized and my name is on the FBHVC Register of experts, I am now getting quite a few referral calls from them as well as DVSA with regards to issues arising with Beach Buggies. There currently seems to be a lot of confusion over the MOT Exemption Status especially with regard to Beach Buggies being advertised for sale on eBay and various Websites.
So lets try and make this very clear for all to understand.
RULES: (https://www.dndservices.co.uk/smiley/rules.gif) These will Differ from Classic Cars as our Vehicles have been Radically Altered in their Visual Appearance
The AGE of your Chassis DOES NOT entitle you to MOT Exemption Status
The Registration date on your V5c DOES NOT entitle you to MOT Exemption Status
Tax Exemption DOES NOT entitle you to MOT Exemption Status
MOT Exemption is awarded upon the DATE THE BUGGY WAS BUILT and NOT the age of the Donor Chassis
If your Buggy was built less than 30 years ago then you DO NOT QUALIFY for MOT Exemption Status
If DVLA/DVSA were NOTIFIED of Change from Beetle to a Buggy less than 30 years ago then you DO NOT QUALIFY for MOT Exemption Status
If your Buggy was built over 30 years ago AND DVLA WERE NOTIFIED of such - Then you "MAY" Qualify as MOT exempt
(Subject to other other rules and regulations that may apply)
Common FAQ's:
My 1966 Buggy is classed as a Historic Vehicle with Free Tax, so its Automatically a "VHI" and MOT exempt, Right?
Wrong. The 30 year exemption ruling is from the date when the DVLA were notified of it being transformed into a Buggy, not the age related year of the donor chassis. If, for instance, your chassis is 1966, but it was converted into a Buggy in 2001, then whilst you may still benefit from free tax, you do not have enough "Buggy years" under your belt to qualify for MOT exemption. This is one of the DVSA quirks as the tax relates to the age of the chassis, yet the MOT exemption relates to the date that DVLA/DVSA were notified of the conversion. This ruling is different for us as unlike the majority of Classic Cars out there, ours have been Radically and Visually Altered - ie: they no longer look like a VW Beetle.
How do I prove when my Buggy was Registered as Converted?
If you can find a clear and concise way of answering this one, then please let me know. In the meantime, I can only offer some general advice based on my experiences so far. This requires some considerable homework. You may need to approach DVLA for a history report on your vehicle, and that again comes with a few caveats. As a general guide, those that were correctly registered and converted prior to the mid 1990`s may have "Convertible" on the Registration Document. Those that have Beach Buggy or the name of a Buggy, such as GP or DOON will probably have been registered post 1998, more often than not with a date specified on the V5. Those that have BEETLE or SALOON registered are unlikely to be considered for MOT exemption as DVSA will class these as not having been correctly registered as a Buggy, unless you have inspection documentation or provenance that can prove otherwise. There will be exceptions to this, and remember that this is just a guide towards MOT Exemption, and not about Vehicle Registration.
My Buggy is Short Wheelbase, Can it still be MOT Exempt?
Sometimes. Chassis length is not taken into consideration providing that any alterations were completed over 30 years ago and that it has the correct wording on the V5. My understanding is that a Short Wheelbase with "Beetle" or "Saloon" on the V5 is NOT EXEMPT and will still require an MOT to be carried out. Anything else on the V5 should be ok. (see above)
I`m not sure my Buggy would go through an MOT, so can I register it as exempt and not have to worry about it?
Definitely not. You car must always be in a fully roadworthy and safe condition. If you think that there is something that will fail an MOT, then it still needs fixing before you can use it on the road. If you get stopped by the side of the road in an un-roadworthy vehicle, then you could face some very serious consequences.
Do I need to find a Special Buggy Friendly MOT Station?
Strictly speaking, No, as any MOT station should be able to test your vehicle although there is no harm in looking for an MOT station that is use to dealing with Classic Cars rather than modern Repmobiles. Some of the younger generation of inspectors may not be initially aware of what they need to test and what is exempt from testing due to the age of the Buggy, and a certain amount of educating them may be required. Its actually quite difficult to fail a Buggy as there is precious little to test, and most of the allotted time will be spent twiddling their thumbs and drinking tea. It is always a good idea to strike up a good rapport with your MOT station though, as it can make life a lot easier!
My MOT tester reckons my 1979 Buggy on a 1966 Pan should be classed as a reconstructed classic.
No. This is an indication of a tester that does not understand the rules and what they have said is actually nothing to do with them. If the registration document indicates that you have a 1966 vehicle, then it is tested as such. This is one of the rare times that I would advise going to another MOT station, as there is no point in making life difficult with an uneducated jobsworth before its even gone on the ramps for inspection.
Do I just let the MOT run out and continue driving as Exempt?
Absolutely not. MOT exemption has to be applied for by means of an annual self declaration of at the time of applying for your vehicle tax. If you are caught driving with an EXPIRED MOT, then this is treated very seriously with the usual result of the car being impounded and often destroyed.
Will my Insurance be OK if I am MOT exempt?
Have a word with your Insurers. A few will allow continued cover, although most of them will have imposed severe restrictions against mileage, personal injury and international travel, and I am aware of quite a few that will no longer provide any cover whatsoever if the vehicle does not have a current MOT.
At the end of the day, if for no other reason, why not just MOT it for peace of mind?
Or are you really that arrogant to think that £30~£40 a year for a second set of professional eyes to carefully inspect your vehicle for faults is not worth it?
Nuff Said.
If I remember correctly yours is a short wheelbase JAS buggy? The Jas kit wasn't introduced until 1999 but if when they built it they re-bodied an existing buggy (an old GP or whatever) then personally I wouldn't consider an almost like-for-like body swap to be a substantial change.
Quote from: Manxdavid on January 22, 2019, 09:03:27 AM
If I remember correctly yours is a short wheelbase JAS buggy? The Jas kit wasn't introduced until 1999 but if when they built it they re-bodied an existing buggy (an old GP or whatever) then personally I wouldn't consider an almost like-for-like body swap to be a substantial change.
Correct - the terms "Radical change in its visual appearance" is the transformation from Beetle to Buggy. I cannot see that a re-body from Buggy to Buggy would throw up any issues.
A minefield it may be but if it says 72 as a convertible and has nothing on the V5 saying body type changed after 1988 etc it will be mot exempt as it has not changed in 30 years as said you are allowed a rebody that does not radically change the apperance it is still a buggy.
If the chassis has been modified in the last 30 years it looses exemption and done past june 1996 it should have had an SVA or IVA test with supporting documentation. Unfortunately some swb builders never bothered so if caught up with now or in the future the buggy will have to pass a much stricter test than it was back then when they have their V5 withdrawn.
Pre 1996 it is a problem caused by a poor registration system and local offices applying descriptions and rules differently hopefully there is now a set standard.
The only real problem is finding out when the description on the V5 was changed, assuming the car didn't start out as a convertible (the chassis number would show this). Most of the time the only ones who know would be DVLA and they are very reticent re giving out information these days citing data protection etc.
That is the problem some V5 can show a major change as a statement on the bottom, anything undated or showing no changes you can only go by what you have and apply for exemption if you want it, but if DVLA know better date wise they should contact the owner and withdraw the exemption with the reason.
Their database will be vague and full of different standards from all the regional offices that finally closed in 2013 plus the Post Offices input, no idea when they went computerised but the new database started 2013 however you can pretty well gaurantee the old paperwork system would not have had every piece of documented info uploaded onto the previous systems and mistakes will have been made.
1986 they issued me a V5 showing Customs restricted vehicle not to be issued without contacting HM Revenue and Customs as it belonged to an American airforce person who had not paid tax on it.
Well that's that cleared up then🤔
Many thanks.
Quote from: Ralphypants on January 22, 2019, 10:11:12 PM
Well that's that cleared up then🤔
Many thanks.
;D ;D As far as i've read if it was a buggy and reg'd as such for 30+ years then MOT exempt.
If not then it isn't.
If the chassis has been substantially modified i.e. cut then not exempt.
As far as i've read for body change the new body should not be a major change from the original i.e. a beetle shape and hard top.
Now as far as i can see even Stevie Wonder would be able to see that a beach buggy open top body shell is nothing like a beetle saloon body so how can that not be a substantial modification?
Changing the body will void the MOT exemption as i was told by the kit cat man at DVLA.
Mine is LWB so not chassis mod but is not MOT exempt as it was not build 30+ years ago and V5 changed to beach buggy in 2004 so mine will be exempt in 24 years.
How anyone can seriously say and think that taking a steel 2 door saloon body off a chassis and bolting a fibreglass open top non beetle looking body to it and say it's not substantially modified and mot exempt must have rocks in their head.
For £45 why don't people just get it done?
Quote from: cunningstunt on January 19, 2021, 07:19:08 PM
Quote from: Ralphypants on January 22, 2019, 10:11:12 PM
Well that's that cleared up then🤔
Many thanks.
;D ;D As far as i've read if it was a buggy and reg'd as such for 30+ years then MOT exempt.
If not then it isn't.
If the chassis has been substantially modified i.e. cut then not exempt.
As far as i've read for body change the new body should not be a major change from the original i.e. a beetle shape and hard top.
Now as far as i can see even Stevie Wonder would be able to see that a beach buggy open top body shell is nothing like a beetle saloon body so how can that not be a substantial modification?
Changing the body will void the MOT exemption as i was told by the kit cat man at DVLA.
Mine is LWB so not chassis mod but is not MOT exempt as it was not build 30+ years ago and V5 changed to beach buggy in 2004 so mine will be exempt in 24 years.
How anyone can seriously say and think that taking a steel 2 door saloon body off a chassis and bolting a fibreglass open top non beetle looking body to it and say it's not substantially modified and mot exempt must have rocks in their head.
For £45 why don't people just get it done?
Yep - You nearly understood that perfectly
But changing the Beetle shell to a fibreglass one is not actually classed as a substantial modification (well yes it is, but) it actually comes under the caveat of "Radically altered in its visual appearance" - which means that they can see its different before starting to get technical
For £45 why don't people just get it done? - ;-)up
I think half the problem is the V5 doesn't match the car presented for MOT Dave so instead of getting it MOT'd and those worms coming out of the can it seems common place to just ignore it, drive the car illegally and hope it might go away and just say they've never had any problems with plod or other.
Those times are changing and it'll not be long before they start getting pulled off the road as per the black one listed for sale on the other buggy forum that DVLA has pulled the reg off and issued a new VIN for and requested an IVA/SVA test because it was no longer a beetle.
Quote from: cunningstunt on January 20, 2021, 09:21:15 PM
I think half the problem is the V5 doesn't match the car presented for MOT Dave so instead of getting it MOT'd and those worms coming out of the can it seems common place to just ignore it, drive the car illegally and hope it might go away and just say they've never had any problems with plod or other.
Those times are changing and it'll not be long before they start getting pulled off the road as per the black one listed for sale on the other buggy forum that DVLA has pulled the reg off and issued a new VIN for and requested an IVA/SVA test because it was no longer a beetle.
Not strictly accurate. The MOT centres do actually have the abilities to alter the vehicle description for the VOSA database which actually differs from the DVLA database (yeah, I know) and most of the MOT guys are clued up enough to know that a Buggy is still just a VW Beetle in disguise. Present it in a different colour and they should refuse it, But Beetle / Saloon / Buggy? Most with be sympathetic and if you get someone who isn`t, walk away as lets face it, the car has failed its MOT already.
The Black Buggy you refer to is because someone stupidly just wanted the V5 to say Buggy. There are ways and means to do this and the devil is in the detail. Follow the rules and guidelines and it can be done, but if you just send in the paperwork with Buggy simply written on it, then they will just throw the book at you, which is what they did for that poor fella. Thats why it was pulled - no other reason.
A few years back when all of our legislation was being scrutinized for Brexit separation, DVLA threw everything at us, and I took them on personally, with the aid of a few knowledgeable Buggy specialists on here and we ended up not only changing the law for all classic cars, but they recognized that the only way to shut us up was to negotiate a special set of rules with us and also enlisted myself on their panel of experts. It was not easy, but a fair compromise was reached. Whilst it not be right for everyone, it did mean that our cars were not wiped off the roads in one foul swoop - and believe me, that was the goal they were aiming for. This is all well documented on here. But with all that now behind us, the problem of an incorrectly worded V5 whilst being annoying, its not the immediate problem it was back then. There are legitimate ways of having Beetle on your V5 and DVLA and the Police just do not have the manpower to challenge this, and probably won`t for the forseeable future. So whilst I have to advise people to stick to the rules, if you are unable to for whatever reason, then don`t draw attention to yourself with any stupidity.
But if you are building a new Buggy or notifying DVLA of a change to a Buggy, then certain Rules have to be followed - And we are here to help you.
If only people would come here first rather than just shout out on Facebook and get 1001 different answers most of them totally wrong.
Quote from: Manxdavid on January 20, 2021, 10:55:17 PM
If only people would come here first rather than just shout out on Facebook and get 1001 different answers most of them totally wrong.
I have never understood why people will trawl through pages and pages of experts saying "Don`t do it" until they find that one page on Facebook from Karen that says you can, and then they do it because she said it was ok. How did our society become so stupid ?
Facebook seems to be the go to point for info and it amazes me the stupid questions people ask and the even sillies answers even caravan wise, what can I tow as I passed my test in 2000 or what is the best tow car to buy when a look on .Gov gives correct legal answers and best tow car is personal or we would all have the same make and model.
oh must publish a photo of my breakfast now ;D ;D
The truly stupid will always look for justification of their views. One of my old school friends has gone down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories about pretty much everything. It's made him a complete pariah among his old mates but he feels justified in his views because having delved in there Facebook algorithms just keep serving up more because that's what it thinks he likes b
Quote from: Doon L001 on January 21, 2021, 09:24:02 AM
The truly stupid will always look for justification of their views.
Slightly reworded maybe?
The truly stupid will always look to Karen on Facebook for justification of their views.
I'll let Karen know then.
Quote from: Flags on January 21, 2021, 10:41:32 AM
I'll let Karen know then.
Rumour has it Karen has felt inundated with too many silly questions that she has gone into disguise so she merges with her nearest and dearest...
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnTX9RM6/IMG-1028-001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zyfJT2mZ)
Call it compassion fatigue or whatever but I'm running out of pity for people who run into registration problems etc after taking advice from Facebook etc. This forum is a brilliant source of facts, not fairy tales, and I try my best to steer people towards it but do they take notice? Seldom if ever.
Yes, I'm having a bad day and am in a grumpy mood but fcuk 'em.
So do ANPR cameras, speed cameras, mobile phone use cameras, Lidl car park cameras etc use the DVLA or DVSA data bases for vehicle descriptions?
I'm thinking DVLA are more concerned with road tax and getting $$$ from Parking Eye etc for your details and DVSA are more concerned if you're MOTd or not.
Any idea how I can find what DVSA have a vehicle described as? :-\ I'm not going to ask them as I've found them to be bigger idiots that the Swansea lot.
Quote from: Manxdavid on January 21, 2021, 01:04:46 PM
So do ANPR cameras, speed cameras, mobile phone use cameras, Lidl car park cameras etc use the DVLA or DVSA data bases for vehicle descriptions?
I'm thinking DVLA are more concerned with road tax and getting $$$ from Parking Eye etc for your details and DVSA are more concerned if you're MOTd or not.
Any idea how I can find what DVSA have a vehicle described as? :-\ I'm not going to ask them as I've found them to be bigger idiots that the Swansea lot.
Hpi check is the best way.. Some time cars come up on hpi check and not on tax checker
Quote from: Manxdavid on January 21, 2021, 01:04:46 PM
So do ANPR cameras, speed cameras, mobile phone use cameras, Lidl car park cameras etc use the DVLA or DVSA data bases for vehicle descriptions?
Depends on the software they are running and which part of the country you are in as all forces are different. Most "Official" and "Mobile" users will initially use the DVSA to see if the vehicle complies with the Road Traffic Acts, but by the time they are talking to you the DVLA one will have been accessed to establish identity. Cash generators such as Car Parks etc, to my knowledge are not able to access DVSA as they only need to establish identity from DVLA.
Quote from: Manxdavid on January 21, 2021, 01:04:46 PM
I'm thinking DVLA are more concerned with road tax and getting $$$ from Parking Eye etc for your details and DVSA are more concerned if you're MOTd or not.
That is also my understanding
Quote from: Manxdavid on January 21, 2021, 01:04:46 PM
Any idea how I can find what DVSA have a vehicle described as? :-\ I'm not going to ask them as I've found them to be bigger idiots that the Swansea lot.
Should already be on your MOT Certificate ;)
Thinking the authorities have access to all dvla keeper/ car information through anpr plus the criminal date base for the police and alike but car parks etc just pay dvla for registered keeper info they already have a photo of your car.
Agree with David there is little sympathy for those ignoring the rules since 98 not just on swb buggy builds but all sorts of motors like ford pops which only have a fibreglass body resembling a pop on top of a V8 custom chassis and gear but are on 1950's pop V5 you take the risk and sometimes loose out. There is good clear information on here and DVLA that can be trusted unlike FB.
What amazed me is someone on the FB forum page asked what to look for when buying one and he got some very good advice from a couple of people who know their stuff. One of the things was make sure its reg'd correctly.
There he is PM'ing a man selling the black buggy pulled off the road by DVLA with no V5 and waiting for IVA inspection ;D ;D ;D ;D :
You couldn't make it up could you :-\
I spoke to said person today on the phone and explained that the black buggy in question should be treated as a parts car. He was told by the seller they are looking at around £4K for the buggy. Now depending on the state of the engine/ gearbox etc, it could possible be parted out for between 3-4K
For an IVA test it's going to require a ground up rebuild.
He's moved on from it now.
It is difficult for those who haven't dug into the process too far to understand that the requirement event exists, let alone the complexities involved, even with the advise given.
While we know, mainly from Paul's hard work and the experience of others how much of a ball ache the IVA build is, many do not.
The sad thing is the buggy in question is a GP, so likely it was initially built a long time ago, proof of course is then issue here.
For those not up to speed with what recently happened to a Guy on Facebook, here is a brief explanation.
A Black Buggy appears to have been rebuilt/restored/purchased/renovated/whatever, lets just say a rather nice looking Buggy has just emerged from the garage and ready for the open road. The Owner decided that instead of saying something like Beetle on the V5 that they would like it to say Buggy instead in the mistaken idea that changing the Body Type would be as easy as say, changing a colour or engine number,where you just fill in the empty box and send it off the DVLA. However,this is the first time that DVLA have ever associated this particular registration number with a Buggy and they have now assumed it to be a new build. As a new build it is now subject to IVA etc. Until this hurdle has been overcome, DVLA have now retracted the registration number. I really feel for this guy as trying to get an older car through an IVA is somewhat difficult and my advice would always be to start from the ground up for compliance and think very carefully about tackling an older pre built one. Yes, it can be done, my have done it, but you are in for a lot of headaches along the way.
It has been suggested that this Buggy is now only worth anything if broken for parts, and whilst that may be correct, and not impossible to actually make more om breaking it up, it seems just a shame to do that just yet. Before I did that myself, I would always try to establish the full history of the car and establish some provenance. Thats where clubs and internet searches come in. Look for the registration number in old photos, can you see pictures of it at an old show, and if so, could you prove the date and location of that show beyond contestation? Background images etc etc
Because if you can, and you can prove a date of existence prior to 1988 (its a DVLA historical date), then gather all of your information and present it to one of the caseworkers at DVLA. They will argue the toss with you, you will have to stand your ground and throw every bit of history back at them, because at the end of it, if you can win them over, SWB/LWB/Beetle/Saloon it matters not, a they will be forced to award you an age related plate and a new name on your V5.
Many on here have done it ;-)up
Or just follow the latest advice!
Haagan Dazs
I know what I would do , it would involve the cheapest beetle with a v5 I could find.
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Lee Warren
Haagan Dazs
🤔 me too👍😂😂
Quote from: Flags on January 21, 2021, 09:07:52 PM
Or just follow the latest advice!
Haagan Dazs
I know what I would do , it would involve the cheapest beetle with a v5 I could find.
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Lee Warren
Haagan Dazs
🤔 me too👍😂😂
Now I know that you are certainly not condoning the illegal concept of cloning a car that would ultimately end up with a custodial sentence, but that reply found on Facebook really sums up the stupidity on there -
All you would still end up with is BEETLE on the V5
Hardly worth the risk of doing Porridge for is it ? ::)
read my reply.
Amazing what folks post on FB as viewers could be in any job :-X
Quote from: Dave DND on January 21, 2021, 10:48:34 PM
Quote from: Flags on January 21, 2021, 09:07:52 PM
Or just follow the latest advice!
Haagan Dazs
I know what I would do , it would involve the cheapest beetle with a v5 I could find.
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· Share
· 9h
Lee Warren
Haagan Dazs
🤔 me too👍😂😂
Now I know that you are certainly not condoning the illegal concept of cloning a car that would ultimately end up with a custodial sentence, but that reply found on Facebook really sums up the stupidity on there -
All you would still end up with is BEETLE on the V5
Hardly worth the risk of doing Porridge for is it ? ::)
Exactly what i thought Dave. Lets buy a buggy thats got no ID because it was pulled for being reg'd as a beetle then take it to bits, buy another V5 and chassis that says beetle, spend hours bolting it back together and £1000's on the chassis and parts and taaaadaaaaaa a buggy with the V5 saying beetle and back to square one, plus very illegal and could well result in prison.
Agree also with the stupidity of people on Facebook posting how they are driving illegal cars knowing so and how they think they got round it, the mind boggles sometimes how they even manage to get out of bed.
One of the first places police go to is social media as it is a wealth of stupid people bragging about beating the system and the "old bill" Wrong!! It does happen 100%.
I feel for the owner of the black buggy. That is a lot of work they have done on it and it sounds sweet too but i also wonder what kind of idiot then posts a video on social media of themselves driving a car with no reg, no tax, no mot and no insurance around a housing estate on public roads :-\
I went through the same sort of thing 20 odd years ago when i bought a GP mk1 lwb from a garden in Luton reg'd as a beetle. In those days it didn't really mean a lot but i knew it wasn't right so i applied to change it and got met with basically the same as the black GP owner but when i bought mine the owner had kept loads of photos and receipts and stuff from years ago so i sent them in and they accepted it was done years ago and got beach buggy on the V5, luckily he kept all the history of it. It then got a new body and i asked DVLA if it was an issue and they said no just change the colour as the gp was red and the gt was green so i've been lucky with that. I even bought a chassis from Mark at Flatlands and DVLA said no problem just give them the new VIN number and as it was lwb with no chassis mods it was fine so recon chassis numbers changed and GT body back on and V5 is correct and matching as VW beach buggy convertible, chassis number matching and engine number matching and retains the reg from the chassis i bought from Mark on a 71 plate. Tax exempt but no MOT exempt.
There's a lot to be said for "ugly long wheel base" builds!
Hi everyone! New to this forum and after some advice on a sandrail build I'd like to start for some time, but it seems difficult to get some accurate info and hoping someone can help!
I'm looking to build a tubular sandrail chassis, and mount it to a completely standard unmodified lwb battle floor pan and the BIG question is....would it need an Iva test?
All the standard beetle floorpan,suspension, engine, steering, instruments etc would be used, would just be a body swap really.
I'm competent at making the tubular chassis (it's what I do for a living) but have had previous problems with the SVA on a lotus 7 style build a few years back. The only non-standard parts I would not be using would be headlights/brake lights,seat harness and fuel tank.
Sorry if this has been asked many times before, but reliable info on this seems to be hard to come by.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
As long as the chassis including the floors remain completely standard, even down to no additional holes being drilled, then it's classed as a re-body so is in theory a purely paperwork exercise.
Send in the V5C along with a V627/1 form with as many answers 'standard VW' as possible and stressing 'standard wheelbase' a few times, along with a few photos, not too many as they are easily confused, and all should be good.
Make one of the photos of a tape measure showing wheelbase and one showing chassis number matching the V5C.
That's great news, thanks for clearing it up.
Yeah, the chassis won't be modified in any way (other than a tidy up and a bit of paint) and the sandrail frame will be bolted through the original body mounting holes. Aim is to use as many parts from the original beetle as possible.
I assume you've got the V5C in your name and it says Beetle saloon or similar in the description that you just want changed to convertible or something more apt?
Pretty much. Got a car available to me, has v5 etc,chassis and running gear is good....body in pretty poor state. Just wanted to try and clear legal side up before spending my cash and starting this project.
I know from experience trying to pass a scratch built buggy chassis through IVA will be painful, and a lot more work.
Thanks again for the advice.
Just catching up on unread posts...... Don`t over think things, (something I have always been guilty of), as the basic legality is this...
The critical criteria is a vehicles "identity".
With a monocoque vehicle, (ie where the vehicle is all one finalised piece with no separate chassis), the "identity" is the whole structure and this brings up modification possibilities that can be a minefield. Yes you can drill a hole in the structure but in theory this drilling should only be in a none "stressed" part of the structure. How you will know what sections this refers to is beyond my understanding and is open to any interpretation by the powers to be.
With a vehicle that has a separate chassis things are far more clearer in theory. The vehicles "identity" is in it`s chassis only. Hence the ability to remove the original body and replace with another and dvla will allow continued road registration. There are some "rules" however such as the chassis must not have any of the original body mounting holes interfered with or body supports removed. I know of no instance of anyone falling foul of this.
To be specific regarding a Beetle chassis..... " Best as I can word it".... Floorpans, for example, can be replaced as this would have been a thing that could be done to a Beetle as part of it`s upkeep whilst beetles were still in production. The part that must remain is the remainder of the chassis along with a vin number that matches the V5C.
Have fun with the build and keep photographs of the build in readiness for dvla..
Quote from: Paul1953 on June 01, 2025, 05:42:59 AMTo be specific regarding a Beetle chassis..... " Best as I can word it".... Floorpans, for example, can be replaced as this would have been a thing that could be done to a Beetle as part of it`s upkeep whilst beetles were still in production. The part that must remain is the remainder of the chassis along with a vin number that matches the V5C.
Have fun with the build and keep photographs of the build in readiness for dvla..
Can I just add that to retain rebody status, floorpan replacement must be with like-for-like replacement panels, not composite ones made up with steel tubing/checker plate/ OXO tins etc.
This was clarified with the DVLA and VOSA as they were at the time by ACE who were an excellent organisation/ campaigning group in it's day. Sadly missed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Mzh0Rbk/10151516800703472-zpsnxtsjhtu.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Yes Dave is correct. Same for frame head or admirals hat.