Beach Buggy .Info

Beach Buggy Help Zone => Beach Buggy General Help => Topic started by: Krug on June 20, 2017, 03:05:35 PM

Title: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on June 20, 2017, 03:05:35 PM
On my way back from IBW I had an issue.  It started by feeling like it was bogging down when I accelerated.   It got worse and after a while I had very little acceleration and had to feather the accelerator to get any acceleration.

Half way home I swapped the HT leads for new Petronix leads.  I also took out the plugs and number 1 was dry and very sooty - the other 3 were perfect.  So I swapped the plugs as well.  I also took out the main jet and the idle that feeds number 1 (I have twin Del 40s).   It did feel a little better for a while but by the time I got to the ferry it was not good again.  Took out number 1 plug as sooty as the one I threw (and dry).

On the last leg back from Hull we got saturated and the carbs must have been hit with more water than they were ever designed to get.  But it got me home.

I am mad busy with work so my plan was to throw it in to my local engine doctor (Stef).   However over the weekend he was bitten by some odd insect and now has a hand the size of a football - so out of action for a while.

So I need to make the time and have a look and see if I can fix it.

Any ideas what it could be / where to start?  It ran perfect going and all the time I was there (up to the trip home when we pulled in to help a fellow stranded buggy)

Thanks in advance

Tony


Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: snoopy on June 20, 2017, 04:37:33 PM
A bit rich on that cylinder best check the number of turns the mixture screws go in on no 1 and 2 until they just bottom out then wind out the same ammount as number 2 went in hope fully no 1 will be further in than iy's starting point.

Other options are distributor cap faulty on 1 or poor compression so it is not firing correctly.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on June 26, 2017, 09:48:38 AM
Finally managed to do some work on Sunday with help from Dave.

Started by taking the plug out and checking I had a good spark.  I have a petronix  dizzy and electronic ignition.  It was a really good spark.  So based on that decided not to carry on with the electrics.

Dave brought a good compression tester so we did a compression test and all ok. 

So decided to go back to fuel.   Carb off and a strip down.  I had some but not excessive muck in the carb.   I have a choke block off (dont use them and the choke area had some small water droplets in .... so some water has got in (though my issue started in the dry on the way back from Germany).

Dave also brought great Snap on Camera so started by putting this into the Carb pot that was suspect and checked the accelerator jet was working (which it was) and not dripping (which it was not).

So then we split everything we could and took everything out that we could.  Gave the carbs a really good clean (Dell 40s).   Cleaned out all the jets etc.   When I stated to re-build noticed the idle jet o ring was slightly damaged.  Like a flat area on one side.  So this needs changing.

Then when we came to the idle adjusters there was no O ring on the pot where I have the issue.   Looked into the carb and sure enough the O ring had split and was jamming the spring in the Carb.   So this could have been making it really rich.

Sadly I had didn't have the right sized o rings so had to stop.  Dave who kindly came round to help went home and found the bits I need (thank you Dave) but I am away this week - so job for the weekend.    If I get time tonight or Friday I am also going to strip down the other just for piece of mind.

We also opened up my Filter King and quite surprising (since it has been a year since I last opened it) not much dirt in it at all.   So I am guessing anything getting in is via my Air filter (which I cleaned and gave a really good oil).

As always - to be continued ....


Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Hugh on June 26, 2017, 11:01:07 AM
Sort of satisfying to find something that may explain the problem despite the length of investigation(s).

Hope this proves to be the end to this particular issue - need you firing properly on all cylinders for RCHM on Sat 5th August !
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on June 26, 2017, 11:52:43 AM
After a bit of time on Google ..... something sort of obvious hits you.   I changed all my fuel lines to ethanol rated after having some issues with the lines degrading and cracking.   But I did not change the o rings...... the more I read the more I see lots of other people with classic cars having the same issues.  They seem to either change them regularly as part of a service or go a similar way and use Ethanol tolerant. 

Still dont know if it will fix my issue but at the end of the day its not right and needs doing.   So fingers crossed.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 01, 2017, 05:42:23 PM
Latest update....

Firstly massive thanks to Dave who has been round twice and had really helped (bringing parts and assistance)
And today Jools who also came round to help and quite frankly I would not have managed without you both!

So today I split the other carb into bits and gave everything a clean.  This was the passenger side and it was actually very clean.   But wanted to check all the O rings just in case and swapped one.

Both Carbs rebuilt and new O rings in offending jets / adjusters and then fire it up.   With just a little tweak we had it running quite well and ready for a test drive............ then the next bit of fun started.   It would not move  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

After a few attempts it became clear that the rear passenger side wheel was locked up.   Now this was a challenge as its the side of the garage where I have no room!  So we got it on a trolley jack and between the three of us man handled the buggy out of the garage.

The we set about dismantling - wheel off no problems, drum was a different story.  The castellated nut would not budge.   One broken socket and a bent bar later and I remembered a socket somewhere in the garage a bit more up for the job.   We applied some heat, big socket with a long extension bar and a few hits with big hammer all synchronised at the same time and it came off!

The brakes at first looked OK.  Nothing broken or hanging off.  Then started to poke around the cylinder and out of one of the rubber covers came a gush of rusty water.   Both sides had loads in.   So we had to dry them and after some lubrication everything went back together  ;-)up

Now back to the carbs.  Test drive time.  Ran sweet and accelerated like a good one.   I need to give it a much longer drive but happy as it ticks over well, picks up well and sound sweet.

On the test drive the brakes were fine as well.

So fingers crossed - it may just be fixed !  Happy days !  Massive thanks to Dave and Jools! 
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Hugh on July 01, 2017, 06:49:09 PM
Blimey.

It must be the long reach of the IBW down pour still grasping out to remind us not to assume we can travel 100's of miles in a buggy and always get away with it...

Great that the Northern Buggy Community is fully operational again.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 03, 2017, 01:03:50 PM
Manged to grab and hour yesterday and tool the buggy for a shake down .........   Happy days when it comes to the carbs and brakes.  All working really well and no backfire / popping / picking up as it should and well behaved tick over.

Now I need to start looking at the other problem that I developed.  Alternator light flashing on occasionally (especially at low revs).  Alternator is only a couple of years old and genuine Bosch.   Fan belt is new and tight.   So going to start with the earth and then scratch my head a bit .... I can feel another post coming on..... this did start before the downpour as I noticed it with the hard top on (ie I could see the light).  So no idea how long this has been happening as most of the time I cant see it when "topless"  .... to be continued .....
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Hugh on July 03, 2017, 01:15:39 PM
Mine can take a minute, or so, to go off but surely if only at low revs then its simply that until the revs build up the charging doesn't start/reach high enough level to switch the red light off ?

If it comes on whilst driving ie more than tick over revs then yes it's a problem.

Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Doon L001 on July 03, 2017, 03:04:41 PM
I would check for corroded loose or dirty connections first.

If you have standard belt and chrome pulleys (if - what am I saying?)  they can be a bit slippy, try roughing up the faces that grip the belt and try rubbing any glaze off of the belt first that could give you a quick fix and prove it is slipping, won't last though unless you rough up the pulleys

Good luck
Dave
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 03, 2017, 04:21:47 PM
Its the slightly thicker belt and the billet pulley ...... so will just go through things logically I guess starting with all the connections and earth.  But will mark the belt and pulley to see if there is any slippage.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Doon L001 on July 03, 2017, 06:11:22 PM
Quote from: Krug on July 03, 2017, 04:21:47 PM
But will mark the belt and pulley to see if there is any slippage.

If you mean make a mark on the belt and pulleys to see if they move that will only work if the pulleys diameter is an exact division of the belt length, it won't be.

Crude test is to see how much leverage it takes to turn the alternator before the belt slips

Gonna be something simple and easy to fix once you find it
All the best Dave
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 03, 2017, 07:04:56 PM
Good point ..... if I try and turn the alternator with a socket it tried to move the engine.   If I press the belt it moves about 10 or 15 mm basically how I have always ran it.  Belt only went on before IBW so as always  ;D ;D ;D ;D TO BE CONTINUED ...  ;D ;D ;D the story of my buggy life !  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: davydoff on July 03, 2017, 07:41:53 PM
My alternator did this, even with chads new super dooper wiring, that was a 1 year old alternator. Swapped it out and it solved the problem

I think this might be your alternator. I got a new one for 130 which comes from the same factory as Bosch just without the name
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: snoopy on July 03, 2017, 10:37:00 PM
Hi Tony, did I see somewhere you were using vitriol O rings now, a word of caution should they get burnt do not touch them with bare flesh as they give off hydrogen flouride that when in contact with the skin instantly converts to hydrofloric acid that will do you no good at all.

A thing that should be known in the motor trade and is by fire brigades and alike.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 04, 2017, 11:50:41 AM
Thanks Snoopy  - I am actually using standard ones.  I found the place that sells Vitron.  I will buy some and have them in.   The issue I see is there are as many people against them as for them and on the Alfa site I looked at most just recommend checking your standard ones regularly and replacing as needed (just like a standard service). So as always quite a bit of contradictory advise out there  .... the main thing is the buggy is running  :D :D :D :D :D and I can use it - plus it was nothing too serious - Lime bug this weekend!!  :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 31, 2017, 12:03:31 PM
So thought I would give a quick update as after saying my carbs were ok .... they were not ok the next time I went to drive it.  Hence some form of intermittent issue.

Just to recap on my way back from IBW this started .... felt like it was bogging down.  Then started to get the odd backfire etc.

So over the last few weeks the carbs have been in bits 10 times.  I have used so many cans of carb cleaner its untrue.  I used high pressure air ... could you believe it I bought air!  I changed all the gaskets etc.... and still I had problems.

I have a Petronix billet dizzy and ignition.   Checked that and the timing .... all good.
I re-did all the tappets.
I checked everything for leaks using GAS from a blow touch and no change.
I replaced all the O-Rings (thanks for the tip Snoopy)
I checked the fuel filters (several times)
I checked the fuel pressure ....

So last week after a series of other household things breaking and no time .... I gave up.

I called Stef at MAC VW and asked for a favour.   He manged to fit me in as long as I just brought the Carbs and not the full buggy (no room as he was too busy).

Well including chatting to me and taking the top of the Carbs it took him less than 45 mins to find.   I have Dellorto DRLA 40s.  The drivers side carb (which I always suspected as being the problem child) had a defective none return valve.  The one in the bottom of the float chamber that gives me that extra squirt of fuel when I accelerate!  Hence the no acceleration and the need to feather the accelerator to get it moving (I was effectively using the fuel and then running lean).  But it was intermittent.   

On close examination the offending valve ball bearing is sitting lower than the other one.  It also makes a different sound when you shake it.   So ordered new ones and fitted..... then monsoon season hit where I live.... so could start it in the garage but could not run it.

This weekend the plan was to try it but a 21st birthday, my garage fusing everytime the outside lights came on and a broken ball valve in my cold water tank (what is it with me a valves) all decided to take up every spare min I had and then when I did get one the monsoon came back.

Just had 5 mins and noticed the sun was out so though I had to seize the opportunity and took it for a run.    Admittedly it needs a tuning tweak but I have acceleration again and no popping and banging!!   So hoping this has fixed it finally.   Intermittent things are such a pain.

Stef pick up on it when he saw no bubbles in my float chamber when he twisted the accelerator .... so a good tip and something to look for in the future.

At least I will be OK for RMCH at the weekend even if it I dont get time to do the tweaks (looking at the weather I dont think I will get any opportunity to run out).  Still have the flashing alternator light but cant say that is going to worry me or stop me at the weekend.  battery on charge now just in case.

So hopefully progress :)
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 31, 2017, 12:12:29 PM
Should have added .... what made this harder to spot some time I would get a jet of fuel through the accelerator jets .... but not always.    So when I looked at the carbs on the buggy and put a mirror over them I did see a squirt of fuel...... when we got no bubbles there was no squirt! 
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 31, 2017, 12:22:12 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154534477226058&set=gm.1955158658101311&type=3&theater
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Hugh on July 31, 2017, 12:28:05 PM
Yes its the intermittent problems in life that are the most frustrating as they undermine your confidence in something always working and also make it hard to demonstrate the problem to an expert.

But terrific you have probably solved this one issue - the defective valve needed sorting and must improve running.

We're all looking forward to the weekend and hoping the monsoon stuff has decided to move on !
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 31, 2017, 12:44:29 PM
Yep replaced both just in case .....

this is how they should look

https://www.dellorto.co.uk/shop/dellorto-car-carburettors-parts/parts/drla-parts/pump-non-return-valve-2/

As for the monsoon we have worse to come this week (tomorrow they have even given out warnings locally about the potential danger of the storm due to hit at around 16:00).  So hoping it will rain its self out by the weekend !
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Hugh on July 31, 2017, 01:18:11 PM
Looks like money well spent - at least one thing less that could be causing any issue - can you tell from looking and shaking the new ones that they are OK ?

Yes the rain may blow through but meantime's you Northerners need to carry your 'Big Coat' or whatever you call them !
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on July 31, 2017, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: Hugh on July 31, 2017, 01:18:11 PM
Looks like money well spent - at least one thing less that could be causing any issue - can you tell from looking and shaking the new ones that they are OK ?

Yes the rain may blow through but meantime's you Northerners need to carry your 'Big Coat' or whatever you call them !

Hugh the new ones make a totally different sound and the ball sits higher .....  so even if this is not the final answer it needed doing.   From the short drive I had today it was 100% better.   Its always hard to tell until you have a long drive but finger crossed.     Hopefully we will get a nice run out after the hospital and before the pub.   I have a route planned that will only work if its dry as its one hell of a road (will have my tools with me so tweaks can be made when we stop  :D :D :D :D :D )
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Hugh on July 31, 2017, 06:24:01 PM
Sounds an unmissable route.

Yesterday 9 of us heading north from Swanage got diverted by the police closing the road and Allan led us up some switch backs through a forest and out on top of the expansive Wiltshire downs with a yellow biplane flying over....we now want to deliberately take this spectacular route next year.

'...will have my tools with me so tweaks can be made when we stop...' Indeed at least one of our buggys is certain to need a tweak or two, especially if rains involved.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 07, 2017, 09:57:13 AM
The saga continues........

I thought the lat carb changes had sorted my issue (maybe with the exception if a tweek)... but over the weekend I had what seemed like constantly changing running issues.   Some times it was fine ..... then it was really bad with little or no acceleration....

After the 1 PM rev up at Tatton and black smoke and bangs .... Allan was talking to me about something he had seen and suggested I took a look in my dizzy.   Its a billet Pertronix 2.   I had had the cap off and given it a visual check and the rotor arm looked ok so was a bit sceptical.

Anyway took off the dizzy cap and first thing I could see was the screws that hold the rota arm where incredibly rusty ( I am thinking they must of been soaked on the way back from Hull).  On close inspection it was not deep rust... but enough to ring alarm bells.

So then took the rotor arm off and to a gasp and apparently a look of amazement on my face one of my advance springs was missing.  It was not broken or anything like that ..... it had turned into rusty dust all over the inside if the dizzy!!!

With help from Dave, Dave and Allan and lots of "council style onlookers .... sorry helpers) ....... a new spring (temporary) was made and fitted.

This got me home and it was much less troublesome (though over 50MPH it did start to run bad).

So new ones ordered this morning and as I seem to keep saying .........


To be continued ......................
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: farmer rob on August 07, 2017, 11:16:40 AM
 ;D ;D ;D Did Allan comment on this because he had the same problem with one of his buggy's :D Spring rotted through and rust dust everywhere! He got  replacement springs ok but this might be an issue with these dizzies. Lots of people give the insides and cap a squirt of WD40 to keep damp at bay and give them an oily smear but they have changed the mixture now, so it is just a water repellent and there is no oil in it!!! So I use a different spray now with oil in it ;-)up ;-)up

Rob
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 07, 2017, 11:59:14 AM
Quote from: farmer rob on August 07, 2017, 11:16:40 AM
;D ;D ;D Did Allan comment on this because he had the same problem with one of his buggy's :D Spring rotted through and rust dust everywhere! He got  replacement springs ok but this might be an issue with these dizzies. Lots of people give the insides and cap a squirt of WD40 to keep damp at bay and give them an oily smear but they have changed the mixture now, so it is just a water repellent and there is no oil in it!!! So I use a different spray now with oil in it ;-)up ;-)up

Rob
Yep

When you google them both Pertronix and MSD seem to have similar issues.  Condensation seems to be what many people feel is an issue.   So yes some for of water repellent oil spray seems to be the way forward  (and Credit to Allan he did tell me that you found this on his buggy...... the great thing about this community ..... sharing the experiences so we all learn  ;-)up )
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: snoopy on August 07, 2017, 06:54:09 PM
For a spray you need "damp start" as this puts a coating on surfaces.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 10, 2017, 02:08:57 PM
the saga really continues......

Yesterday after weeks of fighting with my buggy Stef Keelan kindly managed to squeeze me in at MAC VW.   

Firstly I have to say the man is a legend and I can not thank him enough. 
Secondly Dave (from Littleborough) again came to the rescue bringing parts of his buggy, driving back and forth and generally just helping an unbelievable amount and I need to thank him so much!

Well where do I start.......

1. Fitted the missing spring to the Pertronix dizzy (ran but not great so still not the cause of the issue)
2. School boy error - small bit of old manifold gasket on the bottom (nearest the heads) found and removed.... didnt fix the issue but could not have been helping
3. Changed the emulsion tubes (swapped for Daves) from 9164.2.28 to 9164.2
4. Changed the main jets from 115 to 119
5. Swapped to dizzy to prove it was not at fault - it wasn't
6. Swapped king lead (I had swapped all the others on route home from IBW) and it was not the fault
7. One carb (passenger side) float not at the right level re-set (some improvement but not fixed)
8. Checked valve clearances on the driver's side (as I had not done these)
All of the above took some time as we were running the car after every change and then trying the next thing. Unfortunately Stef's rolling road was out of action so this meant driving up and down in traffic.

Then Stef got out his heat detector / measuring gun and pointed it at my exhaust near the heads.   3 were roughly the same and one was very cool.   
7. Duff plug!!!!!   All plugs changed as a precaution.  Running ..... but still not right especially under hard throttle.

At this point Dave offered to go and get his carbs, his pertronix and coil .... so he and I jumped in his car and off we went.

On the way back after taking off the parts we got a call from Stef and at last we got progress.

1. He drove the car and didnt like the feel of the accelerator.  He felt the cable had slipped and I did not have full movement.  So he adjusted it
2. He then noticed the linkages (hex bar) was not working correctly.  They appeared initially to be the same but did not stay consistent through the full motion.  On closer inspection there appeared to be a twist in the bar.  This was straightened and made a vast improvement (such a pain as I wanted to ditch the hex bars for my sync link but we wanted to make sure it was running ok before doing this)
3. Then Stef noticed a rattle and took the rocker cover off again and I had a broken swivel foot!!! 
4. Stef also noticed the pump rods were not exactly the same ie the nut was slightly more wound in on one side compared to the other

When we arrived back I took it out for a spin.  100% better ..... not 100% correct though.  But now useable.   
I have agreed with Stef to book in after he is back from his hols and when he has the rolling road back working.  Then we can really check everything out and hopefully also get the sync link fitted at the same time.

So as always ....... To be continued  :'( :'( :'( ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Hugh on August 10, 2017, 02:29:18 PM
Gosh that's quite a list. If I didn't own and love driving a buggy I'd wonder why you were persisting for all these weeks in flogging 'a half dead horse'.

Fantastic that you have identified and eliminated and thereby significantly improved so many small issues. I guess its a bit like being thrown a small bone once in a while to keep your attention.

Yes Dave (Littleborough) is a legend and I've only met him twice (IBW & last weekend). Like a handful of others on here - who know who they are - we need such buggy brains, energy and resourcefulness liberally stationed around the country.....

Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 10, 2017, 02:39:47 PM
I think the real issues is we have not been getting to the issue.... we have been finding lots of little things that combined could create an issue..... but my guess is one thing started this chain of events and I did not pin point it.  So in taking things off to try and resolve it we have found other things and possibly even introduced issues or by disturbing things have brought underlying (sleeping) issues to the light .........

Going to Stef gave me great motivation as I was feeling quite despondent.  The fact that there was no one blindingly obvious issue actually helped me and stopped me feeling like an idiot.  Daves enthusiasm also really helped and his focus to just fix it.   So feeling a bit more refreshed and positive now.

I also think with so many things fixed and a rolling road session to come (where valve clearances will be checked prior to going on it) and with hopefully my new sync link fitted.... I am now starting to see the light ..... I also have lots of new parts fitted and old parts cleaned ...... so with a bit of luck will get there and have the buggy set up good for the future.....
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Flags on August 10, 2017, 02:50:01 PM
Was it an elephants foot type of adjustor ?
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 10, 2017, 02:51:29 PM
Quote from: Flags on August 10, 2017, 02:50:01 PM
Was it an elephants foot type of adjustor ?
yep  >:(
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Flags on August 10, 2017, 03:41:49 PM
That's what caused my fire, 1 fell off at speed, ran a little rough so I gave it more beans and the adjustor wound back on an exhaust valve.

Lots of fuel back up into the carb and bang.

The ball type are a pain to set but much better design.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Peter on August 10, 2017, 07:25:07 PM
I run a standard Bosch distributor and dont get anything rusting away, and believe me
I drive in some of the wettest places imaginable, not quite as predictable as Manchester though!  ;-)up

If the billet Pertronix 2 is getting into this state, rather than or as well as using liquids and sprays,
have you ever thought about drilling some small holes, 2mm or 3mm diameter around the bottom of
the distributor body, angled slightly in and upwards, this will let the thing 'breathe' and could well
help a lot to ensure the environment inside is dry...

I dont see why drilling a small hole in the distributor cap itself wouldn't help things either, as it would let
any heat out if moisture was getting in, so avoiding condensation issues...

Peter
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Peter on August 10, 2017, 10:02:25 PM
I just googled the pertronix billet distributor and can't see any 'breather holes anywhere.

This photo of a Bosch shows the four square holes I have in mine, it may not
be the reason for all the rusting away issues that are being seen but these four holes
allow air into the housing, I have just replaced my original one fitted 17 years ago and nothing inside is rusty
or corroded.

Maybe have a look to see what you can do with a drill to improve things, all this is nothing to be
frightened of and drilling holes for good reason even in 'state of the art' stuff (as they should have been there in the first place)
shouldn't actually bugger anything up  ;-)up ;-)up ;-)up

(http://www.thegoldenbug.com/images/vw_technical_articles/132_1_bosch_009_distributor.jpg)
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Flags on August 10, 2017, 10:25:05 PM
They have a breather in the cap Peter, as shown here:

http://www.classic-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=3327

Mines been used in all sorts of weather too and not even mildly moist so may be down to badly fitting caps.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Doon L001 on August 11, 2017, 08:29:55 AM
Mine's been monsooned many times and dry as a bone too
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 11, 2017, 09:37:10 AM
Yes there is a breather in the cap and the wires that come out of the bottom effectively give good breathing as well.  My cap fits like a glove.  Its a perfect fit.   If you google especially on the boat forums you will see many examples of this so there is obviously an issue.  They seem very susceptible to salty air / water which is odd given these are supposed to be machine grade.  I spotted this on the Samba https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672471

In my one only the spring had gone.  Nothing like the example on the link above.  I have been in far more than my fair share of Monsoons .... its Manchester ...... so it has been soaked on numerous occasions.

Basically I will just add it to the list of routine maintenance and check it regularly.  It is supposed to be a "fit and forget" but its naive to think anything is truly that especially with moving parts.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 11, 2017, 09:39:19 AM
http://www.pertronix.com/prod/new/details.aspx?ID=110

The link above is a good image of the dizzy
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 11, 2017, 09:52:17 AM
Quote from: Flags on August 10, 2017, 03:41:49 PM
That's what caused my fire, 1 fell off at speed, ran a little rough so I gave it more beans and the adjustor wound back on an exhaust valve.

Lots of fuel back up into the carb and bang.

The ball type are a pain to set but much better design.
To quote someone .... they are made of cheese !
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Peter on August 11, 2017, 04:53:25 PM
I have just looked at Tony's link and there are indeed issues here...

All the internal parts should be plated and it seems they are not. Thats a big issue.

Now, the one other thing that seems to be digging me in the sides is the ability of
this distributor to breathe, It seems to have a vent on the cap itself, but to be honest
I havent seen a hole or anything yet.

The picture of the Bosch distributor I added earlier shows the situation I have, and there are
four square holes in the base of the main body and I haven't been able to find anything similar on all the photos
of the Pertronix so far.

These four square holes, I would have thought, were vital to encourage air into the distributor body,
the rotating parts inside will be creating  air movement as they fly round and round and will have significant effect
on the draught that is pulled in.
It maybe that my Bosch cap doesn't seal as well as the pertronix but is quite fine because it doesn't need to seal that well,
its a good fit and thats all thats necessary as water isn't pouring inside when its very wet.

It seems to me that protection from the rain outside is far less of an issue than that of ensuring a stable atmosphere inside,
ie a damp one that has the chance to dry out.

The samba thread definitely shows this pertronix is prone to rusting everywhere inside specially on the surfaces of
completely unplated components. I have nothing I can say about that other than its a major fail in the design sense.
Huge in fact.

I think that if you can replicate the four breather holes around the body base, they dont need to be square and 4mm to 5mm diameter would do fine, then the body has a chance to dry out, its not so much that its wet, its more about the state of the air inside.... An airflow
thats being sucked/encouraged in via these four holes due to the movement of the rotor arm and parts flying around is certainly
a situation thats very definitely required...

Peter
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: pepsi81 on August 11, 2017, 07:29:09 PM

Peter, with you on this one. Personally never heard of, or experienced rust issues within a standard distributor.
Not a great advert for a product that protrayed to be a quality item. And the're aren't cheap.

Paul
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on August 14, 2017, 11:55:58 AM
So had a good poke around it this weekend ....... since there are quite a few contributing to this post I thought it worth clearing a few things up.....

1. I have always said .... I never get problems with my billet pertronix.... so be careful as you might one day
2. I replaced my old dizzy (standard VW) because it had rusted inside...... admittedly I did not know the history of it and it did have a blue see through crap cap on it ... but it was full of rust (and I do live in Manchester so getting wet is not uncommon)
3. There is a breather in the Pertronix at the top and it is clear / working
4. Drilling holes in it is not really an option for me as it would need specialist kit as its quite a substantial bit of kit ie thick base

I am really disappointed in it now I have had a good look.   It has been on for several years (which sounds good but considering the mileage I do .... it is poor).
Now I have given it a good clean and changed the cap and rota arm its in better shape.  I have no rust issues on any of the internals ..... it was only the spring that had rusted. The contacts in the cap also had started to get green deposits on them.  So rather than just say I dont have problems with my Pertronix I now will check it on a regular basis and ensure it is clean / rust free / no deposits on the contacts.  I have basically neglected it so I have to carry some of the blame and as said before now just need to add this to the regular maintenance check.

It is sad that given the cost of these things they are still not great .... they have over doubled in price since I bought my one so not cheap at all now.   After thinking about this (a great deal) I dont think there are any issues with water ingress.  The cap fits so well.  So I think it is more likely to be a condensation issue. So I do think Peter is correct with airflow.  The cap fits tight and seals so the only exit is the breather

Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Peter on August 14, 2017, 07:08:28 PM
Very interesting to read this, I have to say the quality isn't in question in the general sense
but there are issues with parts being unplated as thats a very important thing.

The quips about Manchester's weather may well have a part to play though as if a buggy is
left for a while and unused then these things can happen.

I dont experience any problems and thats probably due to my bug being used every day
which makes a huge difference.

Drilling the base with a few holes isnt as difficult as may seem, is the distributor body steel ? If its a soft alloy
or aluminium then a controlled drilling episode whilst kneeling on the floor with
it held between your legs isn't impossible, just I have no idea whats inside, things may need removing first
to avoid getting minced up during the drilling process  ;D

Whatever happen's though, and as Tony has said, it's a shame these things seem to struggle and I am pretty sure
most of it is down to not being used regularly, but that's not the point as design features should be in place
to accommodate those situations.

Hopefully all will be fine in the future with a bit of cleaning maintenance and care

Peter
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Doon L001 on August 15, 2017, 09:06:45 AM
Mine gets used all year but a lot less in winter so I always do a "putting it to bed" routine which includes a dizzy wipe out and spray. Also leave fuel tank level low, keep it pretty brimmed in summer, this lets you top up and overcome stale fuel. Clean fuel filter, spray carbs to keep lubed and prevent ally corrosion.

All just basic maintenance really.
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Krug on September 07, 2017, 01:36:31 PM
I thought it worth updating the ongoing saga of my buggy.   To be honest I got exhausted and literally could not get any motivation as everything tried lead to another issue and another issue.  Farmer Rob seems to be the go to guy in situations like this but sadly a bit too far away so my go to guy is Stef Keelan at MAC VW Manchester.  Thank god for Stef is all I can say!

If you are on facebook you will have seen some updates but to cut a long story short Stef has stuck with it like a trooper and worked through everything methodically.
The result is I now have a running and performing buggy!!!

The issue we think was the underlying thing all the time was a "challenge" to find.  Stef spoke at length with EuroCarb and they even offered to take the carbs but he went with his instincts and basically found an issue. 

On one carb the Auxiliary Venturi seats on an o ring.  Stef notice on one of my carbs / barrels it had a mark on it.  On further inspection it had a raised "lump" on the carb that should not have been there (ever).  After some filing away he managed to get it flat and to seal. Before doing this it could never have sealed correctly. It was interesting that he spotted this when putting his hand over the pot in question whilst the car was under load.

So basically I have never been able to get the carbs right as this has always caused an issue and when set in the past unknowingly had compensated for this or in other words never quite got them set up properly!

Now many other things have been done as well.  My ratio rockers have gone and I am now back to standard VW (OMG the difference – why do we ever think ratio are a better idea.  It's a 1776 with a 110 cam and it has never run this sweet before and so much quieter on tick over).   My sync link is fitted.  My main jets when up a size or two.  It has been timed (several times) and ended up on the rolling road a good few times.

The facebook clip (for those with keen eyes) shows it at 92MPH putting out 80HP. 
 
Whilst it was in Stef also made a few tweaks to my steering as he was not happy with it having test driven it and telling me it was a pig  :'(

So yesterday I got it back with a plan to go to Relics and Rust in the evening.  On the way home I immediately notice the steering was so much better and positive.  The pickup was smooth and constant, tick over was good and it was surprisingly fast (much faster than it had been before it went in).

With a massive grin on my face I got home and obviously had to give it a quick polish  :D   Then off to Relics and Rust via Tuckers who was coming with me......... We arrived at the meeting point and yet again the buggy decided to fight back...... left hand side rocker cover started to leak.   After a quick inspection I decide home was the plan and change it for a spare I had (I have CB performance bolt on with the rubber c type gaskets).

This turned out to be a good move as when we took it off the thing just disintegrated.  I have had this once before with these gaskets and Stef had given me a heads up that I should look to change them soon (even though they have not been on long ..... but they have been on an off many times).

Anyway to cut a long story short – put the new ones on and went to Relics and Rust.  Good run out over the moors with some big hills and two big lads in the buggy.  Ran like a dream!!! 

Now with standard rockers I don't get the excessive on / off banging sound I used to get.  Andy (Tucker) actually said it sound more like a modern sports car and he is right .... Lovely smooth acceleration and a nice deep / constant sound from the exhaust under acceleration.

I have been here so many times .... I know I am tempting fate..... But hopefully this is now not to be continued and finally I can have a reliable / useable buggy (until something different goes wrong of course  ;-)up )

I still want to get the wet weather challenges sorted for my carbs and thanks to Dave we have a plan for that.  I am also going to think more about the dizzy and it will be on my list of regular checks now.   This year I don't plan to put the buggy to sleep like I have done in the past.   I will give it some regular runs over the winter and keep the fuel fresh in the carbs. 
Hopefully September / October will be kind this year and we still get some more use out of it and some drives out.

Massive thanks to Stef as many would have given up – but as he said he like a challenge!  My carbs must be like new now as basically everything has been cleaned several times and replaced. My hex bar has gone and now I am on sync link.  My engine has been leak tested / pressure tested.  My dizzy has been cleaned / new springs. Timing is spot on. Valve clearance is spot on..... Oh an alternator light has stopped flashing!   

Finally a massive thanks to Dave who has been there with me all through this saga.  He has helped, brought parts from his own buggy, towed my buggy and basically listened to my moaning, bitching and crying all through this  ;-)(-;

It was so cool to actually get a picture side by side last night !!! Finally using the buggy !!
(https://s20.postimg.org/umzleiv9p/21371020_1660518003966923_7483104498688540601_n.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: Hugh on September 07, 2017, 03:41:29 PM
Fantastic Krug that you've stayed sane and (fingers crossed) now have many miles of relaxed/enjoyable 'standard' buggy driving.

Great to see you, Jools, Dave etc down for the Xmas meal - might be a chance to run it down to Brum to keep it running it over the winter ?!
Title: Re: 1 sooty plug
Post by: farmer rob on September 07, 2017, 05:52:53 PM
That is great news Krug and well done Stef for finding it ;-)up ;-)up  If the Aux venturi does not seal, it sucks air in through the leak rather than pulling the the fuel through the main jet so it was a tricky one to find. Ratio rockers can be somewhat noisy unless you get the expensive ones with the adjusters on the push-rod side rather than the valve side. Hope you now enjoy lots of miles with smiles now :D :D

Rob