Dave DND and my Hustler GT

Started by Dave DND, February 20, 2013, 08:55:16 PM

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Dave DND

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Hustler GT
Location: Paignton, Devon
A parcel landed on my doorstep the other day from Gaz. I should have been really excited that it had arrived early and Lisa was a bit puzzled by my bemused face before I had even opened it up because the way this has all gone so far, I just knew that I was relying on someone to make something to my measurements and I had a gut feeling that it would probably be wrong.

And sure enough it was.

The open length of the shock was perfect, but instead of having a short measured travel, they sent one with a longer than specified travel which meant that at under heavy braking, the wheels would hit the arches, and because the shock body was a few inches too short it meant that the springs did not have enough thread to attach to, let alone adjust.




A Call to Gaz eventually confirmed that they had indeed made something different to my drawings and they would happily make me another set but it would have to go in the queue again. As they were ultra busy, it would probably be another 4 or 5 weeks. You can imagine my response. They did however have a longer set of springs available at a slightly softer rate and were happy to send them out to me free of charge to see if I could do anything with them. As you can see, they are a much better length for this shock




Right then. As always, make something myself.  :-X

By my calculations, the stroke length was around 40mm too long, and I thought the easiest solution was to put a longer bump stop in there. I have a large box of bits and pieces from messing about previously and it just so happened that I had a par of 38mm polyurethane bushes that would be just about perfect for the job. Pulling the end of the shock off was no easy task as Gaz make them properly (albeit the wrong size) but after a bit of chemical intervention I managed to soften the threadlock they had used to weld it together and my new bump stops then slid into place.




And finally, I have a shock absorber all custom built and ready for use. The only downside is that if this one doesn't work, then I have no one else to blame  ::)




This was quite a significant moment for me as the shocks are now fitted, the initial ride height settings are good and the Buggy is now sat on its wheels on the floor.   :D




I have a bit more fettling and tweaking to do before it rolls out of the garage, but for today I think I will stop before something else goes wrong.

;-)up
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dave@dndservices.co.uk


Paul1953

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I may often appear to be a super critical individual but no matter how hard I try I just do not understand what went wrong.... You can no longer rely on just about anybody to do / supply what they say they will. It should not come down to money, (profit), verses quality be it goods or services. So many people simply do not care any more...... :'( :'(

snoopy

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At least they reacted with free replacements

Dave DND

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Quote from: snoopy on May 10, 2024, 09:11:28 AM
At least they reacted with free replacements

Its a little bit more complicated than that. Gaz only supplied the shocks (no springs yet) at this stage to my photos and drawings, and I was going to temporarily use some of the many springs I had here to determine exactly what I needed weight wise by messing about with them and then get back to them with some measurements. Because the shock dimensions were completely wrong, none of my springs fitted.

To be fair, the Boss man (Warren) really did go out of his way to source the closest size available springs from another company and get them to me very fast. By way of an apology, he also sent them free of charge too which is a real bonus if they work out to be correct.

Whilst the problems should never have arisen in the first place, they handled this very well.  ;-)up
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dave@dndservices.co.uk


Dave DND

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Finally all back together again and after a bit of final fettling with shock ride heights and tracking it was time to take it for a quick spin round the block   :D

Attempt 1 . . . .   

Really Bumpy ride, in fact absolutely bloody awful, 
but knowing that each click of the adjusters on the shocks was equivalent to around 10lbs I backed them all off to zero   :-\


Attempt 2 . . . .   

Much smoother, but steering felt really odd.
Got back to find that the Drivers side upper Torsion arm had popped out of its location - that's a bit scary   :o


Attempt 3 . . . .   

Steering wheel is turning further and further to the left as I am going in a straight line -
again feels very odd on the corners, almost spongy feeling   :-\


Attempt 4 . . . .   

Reversed out of the drive at full right hand lock with someone in the passenger seat as Ballast and didn't even get out the drive before it went BANG  :o
This time the lower Passenger side torsion arm had popped out of its location -
That would certainly explain the dodgy feeling steering as I was physically sliding the Torsion Arm in and out. 


Now, whilst very unusual, I can understand that I may have got something wrong here with bolting on a torsion arm once, but to lose two arms on opposing sides means that I am doing something dangerously wrong here as I do not believe that I could have got this wrong twice. So after a call to Dave Fisher, I have booked a Lorry and the Buggy is now heading up North for him to cast his eyes over it and put it right. It's not that I am admitting defeat on this, but after several years of building various front ends, I have run out of ideas and really just want to drive it again.




Time for the Buggy Guru to take a peek  :-)Geek
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dave@dndservices.co.uk


snoopy

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not nice trailing arms popping out must be the location slots not aligned with the point on the grub screws. Dave will sort it and it is up here for the Kit Car Show.

Dave DND

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Quote from: snoopy on May 22, 2024, 07:36:56 PM
not nice trailing arms popping out must be the location slots not aligned with the point on the grub screws. Dave will sort it and it is up here for the Kit Car Show.

That's the strange thing - I even removed the grub screws so I could look down the holes to align them with the groove (there is only one groove) and still they popped out.

I even started wondering daft thoughts like whether the grub screws were the right shape for the grooves? 

I think Kit Show may be a bit optimistic given he is busy and we have a Bank Holiday also between now and then - No worries, I just want it driveable  :(
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snoopy

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drivable and safe is good see you at Malvern

Paul1953

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That`s a new one to me Dave. Never come across a torsion arm that has moved out - over before. I am waiting patiently to hear what the guy has to say when he has had a look see.

Dave DND

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If I were a gambling man, my money would be on me not having the knack of assembling this particular one correctly - Hence sending to the experts
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Dave DND

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Today I found myself at Kingfisher Kustoms chatting with Dave and his team about their findings, and they have certainly been struggling with this one.   ???

Many theories had come to light about the front torsion arms and the reasons that they would not stay in place, and whilst my favourite from Pat Masters was the shape of the end of the grub screw not locating fully into the groove, it was not to be the case. It took them quite a while to fathom out the problem here and after much deliberation, it seems that the torsion arm problem of sliding out of the beam is down to thickness of the supplied torsion seals. Dave reckoned they may be K&L seals and a bit too thick to be used here. The thickness of them would not allow the arms to be correctly inserted and aligned with the groove for the grub screw to locate correctly as the amount of sideways pressure due to their thickness meant they could not be pushed in far enough to engage the correct location slot. Where I was lining them up with a slot that I could see through the grub screw hole, it was not the correct one and the sideways pressure was just forcing the arms outwards each time the suspension moved. When Max supplied it, the arms were forced into the beam so hard that the thickness of the seals were actually preventing the arms from rotating freely. The seals were slimmed down to a lesser thickness and all appears to be well.

At this stage, I think it important to reiterate just how elusive and unhelpful Max at Eva Resto has been, and that was also echoed by Dave Fisher and his team who were also struggling to get any answers other than "The beam was supplied fully assembled".

Well Max, the beam may well have been supplied fully assembled, but this is what you left inside it from where you did not clean it out properly after shot basting.   >:(



Poor assembly job and zero aftersales service on this one. 


Problem number 2 - The Steering Box(es).  ::)

I think this one has been a real revelation to Dave and his team who have just realised how bad the steering boxes they are supplying actually are. In the recent weeks, they have fitted no less than six brand new boxes to my Buggy and have been staggered as to how much play they are giving. They have stripped them numerous times, rebuilt them, adjusted them, shouted at the suppliers, refitted them and cannot lose the severe amount of play that they keep ending up with. Around 4 inches of play on a 12 inch steering wheel is ridiculous. Feedback from their supplier is that they should be fine on an old Beetle, but we disagree, as not only are these so dangerously loose that they would fail an MOT, it has recently transpired that a certain £85K Porsche Replica Company that also uses them has just had a blanket ban imposed with IVA as they are so poor. Luckily, Dave managed to liberate an EMPI one from a display stand at a recent show and test it on my Buggy where the transformation was incredible. It was them removed and given back as it had to be shown again on a Manufacturer stand at the EBI Show in Belgium last weekend. Dave however, managed to pinch it back again and its now back on my Buggy where it will remain. Its not a cheap box at around £400+Vat, but unlike the sub £200 ones in circulation, this one works. In fact, sitting in Dave's office for an hour or two, I think I may have started something here as from the constant phone calls he was receiving, the steering boxes are certainly a very hot topic at the moment and I`m not sure if the cheap ones we have all come to hate, will ever be stocked again.

The preload on my 140lb front springs has been backed off a little to soften the front up a bit, but with everything still being very new, it's still a bit stiff and needs to wear and bed in a little for correct free movement, and if I need to change the springs out for some softer ones, then that can be done in less time than writing about it here. That can be a trial and error one as time goes on.


I know that some of you were of the opinion that the faults here were of my own making from messing about with things, but it turns out that these problems even had the Guru and his Team baffled for quite a while and turned out to be a lack of quality control on parts being supplied. AGAIN !



A huge shout out and thanks to the guys at Kingfisher Kustoms for sorting this one out, and whilst the black skies that appeared over Smethwick and following Monsoon prevented me from taking it for a proper test ride, I could see that they had all put some serious miles on the clock and were all pleased with it. So I hitched it up and towed it home, where I must confess that it seemed a lot less bouncy than it usually is in my rear view mirror. Hopefully the sun will be out back home and I can have a play at long last.


UPDATE

Managed to take it out for a spin today and whilst the steering and suspension are still a little stiff from everything being so new, I`m pleased to say that I returned home with as many wheels fitted as I left with. That was a win.  Need to put some miles on it now and have a shakedown in a few months.
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dave@dndservices.co.uk


Paul1953

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I think the interpretation of the arm pop off issue has to be the correct one. I cannot think of anything else....

Steering boxes... I learned the hard way. Steer clear of all aftermarket versions. They are worthless. I would suggest an original VW manufactured unit. Send off to N2 Engineering with some patience as the guy is often stowed under with the work. You won`t get the box you send back but will get the first one available. The difference has to be experienced to be believed. The first one I received back actually made me realise how shot the ones were on my Beetles back in the 70`s  ;D  You will never need another replacement.

Yes my box, as was all the steering, came under extreme scrutiny upon inspection. 

snoopy

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Did an adjustment on the Hulk buggy steering box the other day it has done 1000 miles since Volksmagic built it and after going for a test drive I can see why so little use, you turn the wheel a 1/4 of a turn and nothing happens then it catches up then you get the same straightening up so it was adjust both settings on the box to eliminate any play but they are quite hard up adjustments not settings.
Jon the new owner is well happy with the feel now but not sure how long it will last with the box fitted.

About time somebody made a 16mm inner thrust bearing to go onto the original box shaft after the bearing race curve has been machined off.

Dave DND

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Well, its had a good shake down and has probably covered nearly 600 miles with a mixture of being towed behind my van and a fair few added from me driving it also.

And I have to say that I am still not really enjoying driving it. I have this constant niggle in my head that something is still wrong that may be a bit more serious than mere fettling.  :-\

The front suspension is still very stiff. Its certainly drivable, and a lot smoother than it has been for a long time as Liz is keen to point out, but to me it does not feel quite "there" yet and I am certain it can be much softer. I know all of my mechanical joints are reasonably loose, so the suspicion is that I may have too strong a coil spring on there. After chatting at Swanage with Roadrunner, (who inspired me to go down the Eva Resto front beam route), I found out that his own front end is only just starting to loosen up and he is currently running 125lb springs, which are considerably lighter than my 140lb calculated ones. I always knew that this aspect would involve a bit of trial and error and thankfully the springs are extremely easy to swap out. It got me thinking though that if he was running 125lb springs on a much heavier Longer Wheel Base Buggy, then I may as well start off a few pounds lighter and have therefore ordered up a set of 120lbs springs that should be here in a week or so.

Whilst waiting for those, I am going to have another look at this steering. When it left Kingfishers a few weeks ago, it felt stiff and heavy and I was assured that it would get better as everything freed up. But many miles later it has me somewhat perplexed. As the miles pile on, the increased play in the steering wheel is becoming more noticeable and I think the steering is also getting much, much heavier to turn the wheel, if honest, almost too heavy to be comfortable enough to drive. The tracking feels out too despite it being set up. Whilst I appreciate that I am being told it needs to bed in, I am also somewhat impatient and just cannot accept this to be right especially as modern cars never have this problem. A trip up on the rough roads of Dartmoor the other day saw it bouncing about like a thing possessed and when coupled with the really heavy steering that would not self centre properly, it nearly saw me in a ditch when trying to avoid a sheep. Back into the garage then and break out the spanners yet again because as much as Dave Fisher and Crew say they have sorted this, I now have a more than serious doubt about it.

Ok then - lets start with the basics and remove the steering box, which thanks to my telescopic steering column can now be done in a matter of minutes. It suddenly dawned on me that my new Steering Damper may be too stiff, but as the wheels turned very smoothly from side to side with the box removed, I felt that I could rule that one out. With the brand new (and very expensive) steering box clamped in a vice, it feels Ok "ish", maybe a bit tight, but certainly not as bad as it feels on the car. So, remembering to only change one thing at a time and check the results, I thought I would try another box for myself. My good mate Adam down the road was stripping down a waterlogged and rusty Beetle that still had a steering box on it, and he handed it over for me to have a play. On the bench it felt absolutely knackered by comparison, the baggy grinding noises it made as it turned confirmed that it was devoid of any internal lubrication whatsoever, but what the hell - it would take less time to fit than waiting for the kettle to boil.

Hmm. Once fitted, interestingly it felt quite good on the car. Sure, I had not quite got the rotational angle of the steering box quite right onto the beam and the tracking was indeed all over the place due to the pitman arm now pointing skywards, but instantly I could feel a massive improvement as the steering was now light enough for me to be able to use one hand rather than tugging at the wheel with both, like a Lorry driver with broken power steering. The play had largely gone too, and certainly not enough for me to warrant trying to adjust anything further there at this stage. So what would this knackered box be like to actually drive on the road?

The test drive this evening down to the sea front by pure chance found me another 2 miles down the road following a stunning DB6, a Delorean and a Stag, down to a brief local classic car gathering that I knew nothing about. Brixham Classic Cars assemble at the Broadsands Beach Car Park at 6pm for just 1 hour where I not only lined up with around 50 or so amazing cars, but also bumped into my friend John Clewer, (who was once in league with Chad in building the Doon, and also the guy who sold DC and Gail their Buggy all those years ago). That was a really good and unexpected evening.







Anyway, road test - how did it go? That knackered box felt infinitely better than the brand new one it has just replaced and I think I am going to leave it on there for now. Its not perfect, its still very badly worn, but at the moment it feels like I can drive and steer with a bit more confidence than I have been. I suspect that my new steering damper is now masking the tiredness of the box, but for now I am ok with that. Next job then is to check the geometry properly - Camber and tracking. Theoretically camber should not have changed since I have had it back, but the rotational alignment of the steering box and Pitman arm may require some minor tracking adjustments as a result of being refitted.

But thats for another day.
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dave@dndservices.co.uk


PhillipM

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FWIW I run 100lb/inch at the wheel (Not the spring rate, as that's useless given my arm length differences, but that's only 185lb/inch even with my long arms) for my front rates, and only 40lb/inch when it's on the tender/twin springs initially. Obviously bear in mind that's a full race car so comfort isn't a priority.
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