Interestingly land rover front propshaft joints were misaligned to run smoothly.

Interestingly land rover front propshaft joints were misaligned to run smoothly.

Didn't know that 

Here is a picture https://www.paddockspares.com/frc6243-front-propshaft-v8-to-ca254406.html
So you could try a misalignment.

Here is a picture https://www.paddockspares.com/frc6243-front-propshaft-v8-to-ca254406.html
So you could try a misalignment.

Well if Landrover can make a propshaft that is 45 degrees or so out, knowing the forces that will be applied to that have given me absolute confidence that my little steering universal joint should be fine.

Brilliant ! 

[Q. Why did you change the front end in the first place?]

Now that my Buggy has an MOT, and a few miles have been done, I feel that its time to finally answer a few of the many comments and questions that have been repeatedly fired my way in the last few months with regard to the front suspension setup.


Q. Why did you change the front end in the first place?
That's an easy answer. My Buggy was famous for being one of the worst if not THE worst handling cars out there. Everything was either seized, rusted or so badly fitted that nothing appeared to move. The Buggy has always been like this and I have done thousands of miles in it not knowing any different. But it was  such a bone shaker that Lisa is now Physically struggling to be a passenger following her Brain Surgery. I had to do something - and in hindsight, I should have changed the passenger instead.


Q. Why not just replace the original VW setup? What was so wrong with that?
I cannot fault the original VW setup, its simple and it works brilliantly. However, my Beam had been welded up too many times due to rust, the steering box was knackered and the bearings are all kaput. But in reality, have you ever actually tried to buy a new front end? New parts are made from cheese. The quality of the after market parts out there are not as good as they should be and things like steering boxes are virtually non-existent. If you price up a complete front end, and I do mean COMPLETE, then by the time you have added up all the bushes, bearings, arms, joints and shocks as well, you would be amazed as to how close to £3K you get to replace it all - not actually much different to what I spent doing this and if anything, a fraction more.


Q. I reckon that will handle really badly and the ride will be as hard as hell - Was I right?
Now this comment, and believe me, I have heard it a lot, is one that I have never actually understood. Yes, the original VW suspension was fantastic, and it should have been, as after all, they spent a fortune on designers and engineers in getting it right. But also bear in mind that the Beetle was designed to have a metal body on the top with a lot more weight, so if the ride quality was ever going to be compromised, then surely it would be from what we are all doing anyway? We all profess to know more than the VW engineers anyway by constantly messing about with ride heights and geometries whilst still retaining the standard rate sprung components. This Coil Over front end was designed by the same guy that has Westfield's in his Portfolio, and I don't think I have ever heard of a bad handling one of those if built correctly. I have learnt a lot about body weights and the correct shock / spring ratings and this has now been set up correctly for its own weight. Is it perfect? Not a chance, but the ride quality is now so sublime that I am ready for Farmer Rob to drive it and pass the bad handling accolade to someone else.


Q. You also imported an Imohr front end from Brazil? Why did you not use it?
The Imohr front end was a beautifully crafted and impressive bit of kit, and if you want to go down that route, then I would seriously recommend them. The build quality was second to none, the technical assistance was brilliant, and the importing process was not actually as scary as you may think. If anything, it would have been financially cheaper to go down that route than replace with OEM. No, the reason I changed for this one is because this whole concept of a bolt on front end between Dave Fisher and Ed from Pie Valley was actually my idea. It was not only me that got the two of them together (Apologies Dave) but I spent many hours behind the scenes with Ed in helping to shape some of the design ideas into what we actually have here. I had no choice but to go for this one after so much involvement. Would I recommend this over the Imohr?  Ask me after I have done a few miles in it, but the build quality of the welders at Kingfisher Customs who put it all together is way ahead of its rivals.


Q. Why is it riding so high?
Personal Choice. Because I also have to factor in Lisa's injuries, I wanted maximum shock travel for softness over the speed bumps that we have at the end of our road. For those that want the more traditional slammed look, then just go for shorter shocks and springs. Besides, everything is adjustable anyway.
 

Q. Was it easy to fit?
Hmmm. The main challenge I faced here is that it was one of the first ones to be attached to a Buggy. It was very tough at times as I couldn't really ask anyone for help. Ed has been brilliant, sure we have had our moments, but he has always been there and acts immediately on any feedback given. I have lost count of how many shocks he has sent me to try. Dave Fisher has also been good too, the only issue I have had there is the usual one of trying to get hold of him, but help has always been offered at all stages, even to the extent of taking it to him to be sorted. The beam itself was straightforward, getting the shocks right was challenging, and the steering column was a bloody nightmare due to the stupid vertical angle of the input shaft to the rack. I knew it would be a tough one to crack though, and hope that it was all worth it.


Q. Would you change anything if you did it again?
Yes. Apart from some slightly longer brake hoses, I would replace the steering Rack with something else. I`m sure the Mini rack is strong enough, but it was designed for use with 10" skinny wheels, and when using on 15" ultra wide front tyres, the steering is somewhat on the heavy side when trying to park or very low speed manoeuvres. The ratio of steering turns to movement of wheels is all wrong. I think this bit needs a redesign.


Q. All things said and done - Would you recommend it over a traditional beam?
A really tough one to answer. Yes, probably, but only in the same way that I would recommend disc brakes over drum brakes. Both are perfectly good in their own way, and I think it really comes down to price. If something on your suspension is knackered, then it would be more cost effective to search for some good quality parts and keep your original setup alive, but if you have to stick your hands in your pockets for a new front beam along with ancillaries, then I would certainly consider this, or even the Imohr system instead as you would not be disappointed.


It was a brave route to go down, but certainly no regrets (yet) 

That's great news Dave. Nice looking bit of kit, shame it's hidden under a bonnet.
Bet you've missed driving it

See you some time soon I hope
Dave and Lynn

Well good news there now that the 2023 season is getting near.

Reading the build thread from Ludicruz about his rear lights, it has reminded me that I need to sort my own ones out.

Many many moons ago, I got so fed up with the original light fittings going rusty due to my ill fitting lenses that I converted them over to LED and whilst they worked reasonably well, there were a few comments from some of you that they were a little difficult to see at times.

The only waterproof LED's that were readily available 10 years ago when I did this were encapsulated and are now starting to discolour a bit as you can see on the left hand side. The underbody LED's that I used are spectacularly bright and that is not surprising as technology has moved on quite a bit. The ones I am trying out on the right are called SMD5050 and unlike traditional LED's, they have a nice wide viewing angle.




Hopefully I will be in a convoy with you lot sometime soon and you can tell me if they are easier to see or not. 

Well . . .   

I have now covered a few hundred miles in the Buggy with the new front end, and now that I have calmed down a little, I thought it was time to report back on my findings thus far.


The suspension both front and back are absolutely perfect, where it used to judder over every small granular imperfection of smooth tarmac, it now feels sublime and glides over any rock or speed bump that is placed in front of me. As long as I am travelling slowly and in a straight line, its wonderful.


But in the real world of speed and corners its bloody awful - possibly worse. 

Driving up to Dubs in the Middle the other weekend, the steering still felt terrible and I had a severe speed wobble at around 60mph to the point that it felt unsafe cruising on the motorway. When I arrived at Snoopy Towers, it was obvious that my wheel bearings had now settled down and needed tightening up - Keith had done this for me before I had a chance to even blink. It made a bit of difference to the handling, but I think I still need to get my wheels balanced just to be sure.

But before I get a pair of worn tyres rebalanced, they have left me pondering a bit about which way to go with them. The BFG sidewalls on my current setup are very stiff with no give whatsoever, and it has made me wonder about going for a different tyre with a softer sidewall. I'm also wondering if my current tyres are maybe a little too wide? Sure, my 235's look pretty cool sticking out for miles either side, and whilst at crawling speeds the steering is not quite as heavy as you might think, although it may be problematic for anyone with less muscular arms than myself. Spending so much time at 50mph in the slow lane on the M5 I felt it wandering and tram lining which is also a classic sign of being overtired on crap roads (but I am suspecting the steering problems may go deeper than this). At the Malvern Show last weekend, I noticed that most of the Buggies I saw were running 205's, so I`m contemplating maybe dropping down a size or two? Looking around at available options, I spotted a pair of 205x60x14 Nangkeng tyres that may be worth a punt. Whilst not an ultra familiar brand for most out there, I have a set on one of my other cars and I have to say I am really impressed with them. No point balancing the old ones if I go down this route, so hoping for some inspirational thoughts from you lot on that one.

What has also become very noticeable is the amount of play in the steering, some from the universal joints that are on their way out yet again and some from the steering box itself. I hate this steering box with a passion. It feels cheap and nasty with no redeeming features whatsoever. It was designed for tiny 10" wheels from a Mini and the orientation of having a vertical steering shaft is something that I have never been comfortable with from day one. Didn't like it then, and after having driven on it for a few hundred miles, I like it even less now. Its Horrible and it has to go.


I`ll tinker about during the summer whilst the sun is out, but at the end of the season, something major is getting rebuilt - just unsure to what extent just yet.   

Regarding tyres Dave I put rain tyres on and they transformed the braking and handling due to the softness of the compound and sidewalls

Their extra grippiness does make very low speed steering heavier

What is it actually doing at high speed and when cornering?


I know you put above about the guy doing Westfields, etc, but to be honest, you don't hear about them being bad at handling mainly because they're sprung very hard and stiff, and are very light on sticky tyres. They've never really been known for having good suspension, a lot of them are downright archaic, tiny little a-arms that change geometery massively as soon as you try to go softly sprung and get some travel out of them, etc.
Go karts grip well *without* suspension with the same recipe, after all.
A bit late now but that's nothing to base the kit being good on. The ride quality will have simply come from removing most of the friction in the front end given the state your old beam was apparently in, not really the kit/geometery itself per se.
And the biggest issue now is instead of being able to just throw stock parts at it and know it's good, is you're going to have to do the development and engineering work yourself to fine tune it, and that can be a long rabbit hole as you already know with the column.

I'm with you on the rack - I really wouldn't trust the mini rack with VW sized tyres too much, it's a bit undersized and the trouble you're having with the UJ's just shows that was a bad design decision really - if it's not getting too much abuse with knobbly tyres though it might be okay if you can just remake the brackets to lower the column/rotate the rack around and straighten out the UJ's/column?

Dropping down sizes isn't really going to help too much as your castor/trail and scrub radius are set by the arms and wheel offset, I'd probably be measuring the scrub radius and see where you actually are first it may be fixable with some offset changes, going narrow might help a little just from the tyres being lighter but I wouldn't say it'd be a huge difference.
Having said that for an idea the racer only runs 195/205 wide front tyres depending on the event, you don't really gain much with wide tyres up front, half the time it hurts you because you can't keep the tread warm enough to work properly.

As for they tyre themselves as already said maybe try some rain biased tyres, or even switch to an all-season tyre up front with a soft compound. I wouldn't bother with the Nankangs though they are very hit and miss as tyres go, I wouldn't even fit them in an emergency. They're terrible when they cool off or the roads get greasy and that's the last thing you want with a light front ended buggy.
205/60 R14 is a weird size though you'd probably have to drop down a bit more to a 185/195/65 these days for anything half decent in a normal road tyre.

Why do none of the parts factors have this information available, and why are they all selling these bars by "Quality" instead of the load weight capability?

And just to go all the way back to this point while I was scanning back in the thread - that's because the rear spring rate isn't linear on the rear of a VW, it reduces either way away from the spring plate being horizontal - and as soon as you change the length of the trailing arm which when many are sold to people because they're putting 3x2, 3x3, 5x5 rear arms on, makes it meaningless to them outside of doing their own calculations.
What you do need there, is to know how far you can twist to the bar before it deforms to match it to your travel - which is why they sell on the quality and the max angle a bar can usually do.

So basically your table is good for a rough rule of thumb at one spot on the OE suspension, but that's all.

That's some interesting observations there - Thank You. 

For want of a better description, the steering almost feels like "bump steer" but the front end is so silky smooth in its travels that its like nothing else I have experienced, nor can put into words. Whenever I have driven kit cars with bump steer, you usually get the "bump" as well as the steer - this doesn't and almost feels like the rack is made from rubber.

However, I think you are probably quite close with your thoughts here, and I`m fast coming to the same conclusion.

. . . . . downright archaic, tiny little a-arms that change geometery massively as soon as you try to go softly sprung and get some travel out of them, etc.

The rack has to go - and top of the wish list so far is a Ford Escort MK2 LHD one flipped over with a 2.4 ratio - Many others seem to be using this one, so its kind of proven itself. The crap design of the Mini rack mountings and that vertical shaft are just wrong from every perspective, but tried as I may, it just couldn't be fitted any other way without the input shaft ridiculously pointing skywards. I`m not sure what physical room I currently have for the Escort Rack, but if it means junking the entire front end and reverting back to some form of VW beam setup (with coil overs though so I can get the correct sprung weights etc) then so be it.

A bit late now but that's nothing to base the kit being good on. The ride quality will have simply come from removing most of the friction in the front end given the state your old beam was apparently in, not really the kit/geometery itself per se.

With hindsight, I cannot disagree there - Front end was seized and rear was coil bound - and I think I have over contributed the "nice ride" comments to the new bits fitted, instead of simply fixing the old bits and faults. With the problems I have had over the last couple of years trying to get this bloody thing to work, I am halfway towards looking for an alternative solution anyway.

Dropping down sizes isn't really going to help too much as your castor/trail and scrub radius are set by the arms and wheel offset . . . . . going narrow might help a little just from the tyres being lighter but I wouldn't say it'd be a huge difference.

Dropping sizes isn't going to do much, I fully accept that - But my tyres do stick out a bit too far past the wings, so dropping a couple of sizes ought to be done to keep the Feds happy. They need balancing anyway, so might as well get new ones done rather than the old worn ones. I have Nangkangs on my Focus (not by choice) and they are not bad - sure, they are not up to ultra high speed racing etc, but perfectly adequate for a Buggy that is usually in a carnival or on a cruise, and seldom see's the wrong side of a speed limit anyway.

I don't mind the development or engineering work, and quite enjoy some of the challenges being thrown, but I'm not sure I can go much further with this now - not all experimentation works, and sometimes you have to accept that it never will - I think I am nearing that point and may actually have to call it a day on this setup because if the truth be told . . . 

I'm not actually enjoying driving it that much - Which is very sad for a Buggy   

When you say it feels like the rack is made from rubber - the car is tramlining, pulls around, feels like the front wheels want to dart or shimmy from side to side when you get some speed?

Do you happen to know what the castor and trail settings are on the kit as it's fitted atm?


edit - an Escort rack might work for what you have if the widths of the joints ends up the same - but with the original beam setup it wouldn't be much good, it'd be bump steer city, you need a centre mounting rack really.


double edit - my problem with those tyres isn't really high speed, racing, etc, in fact they're actually reasonable as track tyres because you can get heat into them and have room to play, the problem is they get very hard below about 5-10c and especially if it's wet to pull the heat out of them, one minute you're fine the next minute the back end has stepped out at walking pace like someone greased them, they're just unpredictable.
Kuhmo's aren't much more money and things like their HS51, HS52 are very good tyres up there with a lot of the premium makes, but then in 14 inch you'll struggle for much in the way of more modern tyres.

RainExperts or an all-season like Quadtracs might do you well though.

I`ll see if I can dig out Caster and trail settings, as have them written down somewhere 

Oh, and Escort rack is centrally mounted with equal widths either side - Lawson has just posted a picture of his one on another thread