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May 28, 2020, 05:18:04 PM

BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED

This is a discussion for the topic BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED on the board Members Buggies.

Author Topic: BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED  (Read 46560 times)

this user is offline snoopy

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Reply #315 on: October 23, 2019, 08:25:21 PM
observation side/tail are better fused left and right so if a tail does go you still have one working  on front and rear.
 Why complicate it with secondary relays on the headlamps just wire the fog unit to 56a and b on the main relay, a headlamp relay will take the power for 2 X 55/60W bulbs and your primary relay does only with ignition on headlamps.
you also need a high beam warning light.



this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #316 on: October 24, 2019, 07:54:25 AM
Why complicate it with secondary relays . . . . .

Actually I agree with the extra relays and a higher level of complication, but for a different reason.

Having previously spending many years in Vehicle Security (at a considerably higher level than your average alarm fitter) what has always concerned me is the simplicity of the older generation of classic cars (and Buggy's) and just how easy the systems are to hotwire and bypass. The more wires, relays and levels of confusion you can thrown in there, to me, the better.

Coming on great though and fascinated following this thread   
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Reply #317 on: October 24, 2019, 10:03:12 AM
Complicated on antitheft is one thing but a failure on the road of a lighting circuit at night is harder to sort and the chance of a failure increases with complexity more so if you have chineseum relays.

A simple piece of wire 2 ft long and a bump start will take any buggy with a standardish ignition system no matter what you have under the dash hot wiring is easy unless you go to an ignition control box that needs another feed to work.
Anti theft for a buggy needs to be mechanical, luckily they are not targeted the by criminal fraternity as pool cars.


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #318 on: October 24, 2019, 02:45:09 PM
Hi  Keith.... I can answer your question...... "does it need to be this complicated?".....  The answer is no of course but I have a view upon the question and I hope I can put it in words........

A beach buggy is quite unique and as such an individual vehicle. So I believe there are two basic reasons for ownership. One is that whereby an individual is introduced to a buggy and is hooked forever and there are those that "dream buggy" and find the actual ownership not quite the dream and so the buggy gets passed on. The first category guys then I believe to be "real" individuals themselves otherwise they would never have got hooked in the first place. I have seen comments on the forum such as "preference to build a buggy out of bits and pieces sourced from all over and built in a weekend". That is absolutely fine by me. I see it like this..... That is fine.... Also can I use Ludicruz as an example. He has spent many, many years creating his buggy. Spending lots of money on the way I guess and engineering his dream of what a buggy should be for him. The result speaks a thousand words. I simply see that either end of this spectrum and all stages in between are all of equal merit for each and every indivual effort. What I post on my thread is "Paul`s dream".... a buggy that will go through the latest iva test procedure, a buggy that whilst compromised from the original Manx buggy will look very close to an original and the mods will take some looking to find and see. It is purely my choice to use the described things\methods you see in the thread.

I do agree when you say that the simpler something is the less there is to go wrong but there is nothing wrong going a step further surely..  Chineseum quality relays are what is commonly available and it is what I am using until post iva and on the road. At that point I will be replacing with original nos Hella relays. They are readily available and may cost a little more but the build quality is as good as you are going to get.

I think what I am trying to say here is that there is a place for all individual tastes\views etc...  ;-)up ;-)up


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #319 on: October 24, 2019, 03:04:02 PM
I overlooked mention of the speedo bulb....  It is omiited from my original schematic on purpose as I am using dual intensity illumination at the switch but I should have explained this. IVA is very specific about switch identification. Switch must have identification. You can have a switch and an appropriate separate indicator light. The switch should have a lens of the proscribed colour with the prescribed logo on the lens. You can use dual intensity at the switch for purpose of night i\d and circuit live. I now know that this has been thought of and used by others. The more usual option is a separate lamp indicator per switch. Again appropriate colour and logo. So.... the speedo bulb as found in a VW speedo.... You would need to remove the bezel to gain access to the "dial" face in order to place the appropriate logos next to the main beam and indicator gels. (I have had my speedo apart to recondition it and forgot this bit so it`s a job to do probably on another speedo I have).

Twin fusing at the rear.......... I have this for two reasons. One as Keith says to allow one light to be operative should the other default to dud. The other is that aftermarket led lights are sealed and come with bare wire ended cables. I have a fuse box located at the rear of buggy also so that i can fuse individually and have the means to teminate light cables correctly and have the means to "un-plug" should I ever have cause to need to remove a light. Somewhere along my timeline I will try to create a full schematic but this is not easy for me. I cannot get my head around CAD programmes so am using Microsoft Publisher which is a laborious way to do it. I also am limited to A4 page size.



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Reply #320 on: October 24, 2019, 08:10:07 PM
Quote from: Paul1953

I think what I am trying to say here is that there is a place for all individual tastes\views etc...  ;-)up ;-)up
[/quote

very true Paul no 2 are the same just like the owners. ;-)up


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #321 on: November 12, 2019, 02:27:24 PM
Here is an introduction to the "timer relay"....

Not needed on a buggy I know, unless you go the heated windscreen route as I have.   The timer relay can be used with any suitable load that requires a timed on period. (or off if you can think of anything requiring this).    There are timer relays and then decent timer relays. The versions with a little variable resistor that you can adjust through the relay casing with a tiny screwdriver are generally useless over any prolonged period of use. I use Nagares, an oem supplier and their relays can be found on many cars etc. They vary with load capability and timer duration. The Nagares TLT/5-12 as you can see in the photo has a load capacity of 20 amps and the timer duration is stated at 10 minutes. It`s accuracy is not too far out and the one on my buggy goes off after 12 minutes. This relay will cost between £15 and £20 but in this instance you really do only get what you pay for

Sticking with my idea of dual brightness illumination at the switch, low brightnesss for night lighting and full brightness to indicate Demist On gave me an issue that I did expect to come across. Back EMF when relay switched to on and pin 5 became live. Solved with the old school method of including a 12v 500ma Zener diode in the wire from pin 5 back to the momentary switch led positive. Diode anode, (the end with the coloured band), to the switch side.
(You can use switches with incadescent bulbs but they are quite dim when resistor fitted in line with feed).   Having not kept up to date when electronics went digital and solid state I don`t know if all diodes are of zener variety now. The first diodes were "slow in action" and so did  not take over from rectifier valves until the zener was introduced.

The relay has 5 terminals.  Terminal 1 is linked to terminal 4 via a "momentary" switch. The relay operates when this switch is depressed and released which sends a pulse to the relay. The first pulse forces the relay into action. A second pulse switches it off..  Terminal 5 is the 12 volt out to the "load", the demist screen in this case. Terminal 2 is the relay ground. Terminal 3 is a 12 volt, fused, ignition switched feed. Also to terminal 4 is the ACC 12v in. (Should be fused also).  ACC = accessories and the terminal remains live. The momentary switch is there to ensure you cannot operate the screen demist without the ignition on.

Only for dual brightness at switch illumination.....  Wire from the relay terminal that is live with ignition on, (no 5), a wire back to the positive side of the switch led with the diode fitted in-line. To same switch illumination terminal a wire with an in-line resistor from dash illumination or sidelight switch on output terminal.




this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #322 on: December 30, 2019, 04:40:53 PM
Having become a real fan of led auto bulbs I have been playing around with the generator\speedo bulb as a led draws so little current it will not "excite" the alternator I have on my engine. Also noting that the gen\oil\indicator bulb holders are set for "reverse positive wiring". That is to say that the bulb holder is the positive with the spade teminal being negative. For oil & indicator you can get leds manufactured reverse wise but another approach is needed for the alternator. The led needs an additional load so dug out a few resistors and also tried something that dawned upon me as being another obvious solution. That being the fact that the original incadescant bulb could be utilised as a "load". Then when googling availability of reverse polarity manufacture of leds I found that quite a number of home build guys had already utilised the original bulb as a load.

So it is fairly easy to get a reverse polarity red led`s and I have found that a standard resistor I had to hand  of 150 ohms wired in parallel to the led "kicks" the alternator into generating as normal. As I have had this operating only for short periods I cannot say definitively that you do not need a diode in case of back emf. It wouldn`t hurt to add one. Then i put into the speedo a led with a bulb wired in parallel and this worked also. Yes you get the bulb lighting up when ignition switched on but it`s not noticable behind the dash. You could paint it blacck of course  ;D ;D

Bit by bit I am measuring current draw from all the lights and where led`s are used the amperage is really minimal.


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Reply #323 on: December 31, 2019, 07:23:34 PM

Great right up Paul. Unfortunately Iím mechanical. Okay with 240v + but 12v confuses me. Could I put LED lamps ( my E&I day they are not bulbs) in my headlights.
Best from the other side of the north ;-)(-;


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #324 on: January 02, 2020, 08:54:42 AM
Happy New Year to you. Weird festive season weather my way. No sign of any snow and extremely limited frost overnight. Something is really not right.

There are now many headlight replacement units on the market along with individual bulbs. I believe just about every modern and classic bulb type is catered for now. I have not yet got around to trying headlamp bulbs. Take a look at something like "Classic Car Leds" website. They show each bulb variation and the choice of positive or negative earth. (Steer clear of ebay stuff unless from a reputable supplier).
Buggy Pete made a comment some time back that compared to incadescent bulbs led lighting is a "quantum leap" forward. This I agree with.

You no longer need to have a huge heat emitting resistor for each bulb. They are simply "plug in and play".


this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #325 on: January 02, 2020, 10:28:43 AM
Whilst I am a strong convert to LED lighting, I also have a real problem with them

Yes, they are brighter, yes they are more efficient, yes, they Usually(!) last longer

But . . . .  They give out very little light due to having a limited or no focal length

Old bulbs had the filament in one place, its position carefully calculated and measured so that the mirrored lens of the housing could focus the light forwards, sometimes through an optically optimized lens and we would have a nice light output.

LED lights have lots of components randomly stuck on and there is not enough concentration of light to make the mirror work.

Think of street lights and the recent roll out of LED lighting. Sure, if you look at the lights themselves, its a nice crisp white very bright looking unit, but as they no longer have a focal length, the floor beneath them is often unlit and the roads appear much darker to drive on.

I have LED headlights on my Buggy - look great, but bloody awful to drive on in the dark
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this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #326 on: January 02, 2020, 02:26:02 PM
Dave you have a really valid point  point here so I am going to be a bit more specific. I have atrificial lenses in my eyes which gave me back almost 20\20 vision with only one drawback. As the brain does the focusing, not the lens, for real close up and very small lettering I need really bright conditions. This must be a "contrast"  thing. I mention this as I have spent a lot of my time laid on my back working behind the buggy dash. (Have a go soldering upside down and not scream when a hot blob drops on your cheek  ;D ;D). )  Anyway to my point... my small torch with incadescent bulb held between my teeth worked great and I could see what I was looking at. I have a small torch with 3 leds in and it is useless. It gives next to no light in the place you point it.

So.... bit more on what I said to Mark.....  Definately check out headlight bulbs\ units before buying.
Instrument lighting. Single led bulbs in various colours. Some coloured bulbs work best behing a coloured gel but all are better than the old style bulb. I remember running around in 50`s ,60`s & 70s cars that had instrument light clusters with differing colour gels. In sunlight you could see nothing at all from them. There is now a large following from the classic car guys for this sort of led lighting. You are looking at the led almost head on so they look bright.
Rear all in one units.... Very visible as again most likely because you are looking directly at them when behind the vehicle. The latest super brights are , in my opinion, too bright at night and sometimes in daylight.
Front sidelights... same issue only bright when looking at them.
Ba9 indicator bulbs... probably the best improvement. These bulbs have leds on the tip and an 4 sides so not so directional and they are truly bright.
Single led repeaters.... again really bright when you look straight at them.

This all said I can see why led headlights may leave a lot to be desired. There is a huge variety of led headlight/spotlights available now.

I will be sticking to my standard, non halogen, incadescant headlights at 55\60 watts per side with sidelight bulb also.   

It will be interesting to see what the iva inspector makes of my lighting as there is a statement in the requirements that for headlights the "colour" of both headlights, dipped and main beams, must be of similar "colour". No mention of this with other lights but everything is in the inspectors hands as suitability.
I have 2 miniature led lamps, e marked, holding the rear number plate on. Both bought at the same time from the same supplier. One is what I would call "warm" white and the other "cool" white. The difference is noticable and looks odd.

On another tack have just realised I havn`t ordered my calendar... :D



this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #327 on: January 02, 2020, 02:30:35 PM
Calender ordered   ;-)up ;-)up


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Reply #328 on: January 02, 2020, 02:56:40 PM
Calender ordered   ;-)up ;-)up

 ;D  Thank you  ;-)up

FYI, I tried one of the top spec LED light units fitted on one side, with a range of other lights on the other side. At best, the LED unit was marginally better than an old sealed beam unit, but nothing compared with a lens with a replaceable H4 bulb. On a slow car, such as the Buggy or an old classic, then LED headlights are "acceptable" for driving at night, but if driving a faster car where you need to see further down the road . . . . Not a chance.

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this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #329 on: February 18, 2020, 04:26:29 PM
Well... Finding I cannot get to sleep on a night any more.... Simply cannot switch off   ;D ;D

So got to thinking of the times I have been asked.."whats the reverse negative thing then"?.... So here it is as relates to a Beetle etc for anyone new to it all.   ;-)up ;-)up 

A standard bulb holder has the body negative and the bulb holder base terminal positive. Reverse positive is simply the opposite,,, bulb body +12v & bulb base pip -12v.

Photo 1... shows a standard European spec speedo body. Top two bulb holders for internal illumination. Mid way down.. Main Beam. All normal positive connection whereby the bulb body earths "to ground" via the speedo body. Note the earth tag which is often missing on ebay stuff.
 At the bottom there are 3 x holders that are part of a raised resin structure that allows fittment of bulbs without their bodies going to ground via the speedo body. There is a 1\4" spade terminal on end of the resin block and this is the +12v terminal. This links to all 3 bulb holder bodies via a copper strip which continues into each of the three bulb holders. A quick look and you will see what I mean. These three bulbs are for Oil Pressure, Indicator & Generator\Alternator.
(US spec speedos have two additional bulb holders. One for Air Con & the other for Rear Window De-mist but these are rare in the UK).



Photo 2 .... Shows the relations ship wiring wise for the Oil Pressure switch and the Alternator B+.
The oil pressure switch screws directly into the engine casing port and switches the negative, (-12v), so it is important that you have a good ground connection between chassis, gearbox & engine casing. This is "reverse positive" wiring. Also see the wire from speedo bulb to Alternator B+. No need tor tech stuff here... just be aware that an alternator needs to "see" a voltage in order to commence an output. The accepted term for this is "exciting" of the alternator and so the generic term for what is needed to allow the use of a  led in the speedo is with the addition of an "exciter". A led draws so little current the alternator just cannot see the voltage\current  and so does not respond and there is no output and the led remains illuminated. Exciters are available off the shelf in the US but I don`t know of any UK outlet. However you can achieve the necessary  load for the alternator by fitting a "reverse positive" led with a resistor wired in parallel with the led. (You can use the original incadescent bulb wired in parallel with the led. It will light up at "ignition on" buts thats hardly an issue. I have tried this and it works). I opted for a 100 ohm resitor but you may need to adjust slightly depending upon each case. You will know when you are right when the led illuminates at ignition on but goes out within a second or two after engine start up. (Decent UK normal & reverse positive auto ledss can be bought for £1.80 if I remember right... B7a type but check this).



Photo 3....  This shows the actual connections for the resistor. (As yet I have no issues with back emf but if time shows this occuring I will add the diode detail).  Whilst I was creating the images for the photo I included the mod for the indicator led which, in my instance cannot be fitted directly into the resin housing as it needs the led body insulating from the contact within the resin holder. I have led lighting for indicators & side repeaters so the relay has to be led compatible. The relay has 3 x 1\4" spade terminals with an additional "flying lead" for earth. This lead must be grounded for the relay to operate. 1 of the spade terminals is marked "X" and this is the +12v, ignition switched, fused supply to the relay. The 2nd is marked "L" and this is the "load... Ie output to indicator switch. The 3rd is marked "P" and this is +12v out to the speedo bulb.   So I took a led, either type will do, and soldered a thin wall wire to the led body and a second the the end pip. This giving individual connection for +12v & -12v. I used a piece of standard heat shrink to insulate the led metal body and a second piece of military grade heat shrink which is thicker than the cheepo stuff and shrunk this in place over the first. By chance this then gave a perfect snug slide in fit to the speedo bulb holder and all functions well.