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May 25, 2020, 06:57:18 AM

BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED

This is a discussion for the topic BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED on the board Members Buggies.

Author Topic: BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED  (Read 46462 times)

this user is offline Hugh

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Reply #330 on: February 27, 2020, 07:25:00 AM
Whilst I can't offer you any practical buggy help Paul since its clear you are remarkably informed, resourceful and able, I can wish you a happy birthday.

I hope you find a none buggy distraction for the day - and not flood watching !

Hugh


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #331 on: February 27, 2020, 08:23:55 AM
Hi Hugh and thank you. Not sure how I feel about being 67  ;D

I have my orders for today from the missus....  No garage, no shed, nobody else`s vehicles  :'( :'(

I virtually live outdoors year round and find it difficult to settle indoors or anywhere within buildings so I am used to the cold weather, the rain, the snow and on occasion a bit of summer warmth, (sunshine a bit rare hereabouts).. What I dislike intensly is the wind and we have had continuous driving gales with the rain going sideways. It is the wind up this way that is biting cold.

Guess next birthday I will be asking for heated clothing to help keep the old bones warm whilst out in the buggy..

Take care... Paul


this user is online pepsi81

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Reply #332 on: February 27, 2020, 08:55:05 AM

Happy birthday from the other side of the north.
Have a good one  ;-)up


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #333 on: February 27, 2020, 01:30:12 PM
Thank You....  ;-)up


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #334 on: April 15, 2020, 06:46:58 PM
Next step in thread....  This being seat belt fitment to my buggy.  This is a subject that will be as interesting for me at the iva examination as presenting an exposed aircooled boxer motor will be.  Please note.. all description and photo`s are as the system on my buggy is now after long thought, frustration and with lot`s of VOSA tech input. (This input albeit at a distance and open to my interpretation. So this is guidance only and I will return to the subject post examination0.
viation from
This will appear really complicated as I give IVA manual details but it is not. The requirements are specific. It`s the conversion of the application to a standard beetle floorpan, and buggy tub that isn`t. I purchased to original grade pans at quite a cost so have stuck with this hence the time and the frustration over some months now. I originally wanted to build an iva compliant buggy with as little deviation from norm as possible. For this stick to harness fitment. For seat belts then here is where I am and let`s see if they comply and if not I will come back with revisions.

Firstly read the manual thoroughly. I would die of old sge if I attemped to type all out with two fingers   ;D ;D  "Seat Belt Anchorages" Section 19, Revision 7 Date 17\06\2013.. (Be warned section is 18 pages long).

Required Standard
1). Each seating position for forward, sideward & rearward facing passenger must have the minimum number of adequate anchorage points. (See annexe 1 & 2).

2). Skip this one.

3). The anchorage and surrounding structure  must be of adequate strength to withstand the load likely to posed in the advent of a vehicle frontal impact. (see annexe 2).

Annexe2...   Seat belt anchorages must comply with the strength requirements for M1 vehicles in Directive 76\115\EEC or an equivalent standard. This can be demonstrated in several ways.

Jumping to part 3...
 Comparison with a type approved vehicle. Evidence that the vehicle is of identical structure to a vehicle which has been demonstrated to comply with the requirements or which is type approved may be used to confirm compliance .

Part 4.... Visual Assessment...
In the absence of evidence the examiner will have to determine wether the vehicle complies using a visual inspection.   This if what will be used for my buggy. 

(This briefly gets from page 1 to 5. Look at manual for all the rest...  Bolts. Bolt grades. Stress plate minimums and so on).




this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #335 on: April 15, 2020, 07:08:07 PM


Take a look at the photo..... Note the section enclosed by the yellow broken lines  A, B, C & D.... The floorpan slopes deeply from midsection to the rear. This presumably to provide Beetle rear passengers with additional leg space and of course the changes of angles strengthens the sheet metal. Upon shortening the floorpan the deeper rear section is brought further forward and the lost 14.5" , (Manx), leaves a very difficult underside shape to fit stress plates to ;D ;D

Note the early style seat runners... This is a no-no re- IVA. Has to be removed and replaced with modern generic or custom made seat runners and each set of runners have to have the lock\unlock lever operate both runners.

Bolts 8.8 grade minimum except for structural which must ne 10.9 minimum but 12.1 preferable. (Don`t use 8.8)

Note seat belt bolts are unf threads... Yes even on a Beetle with all other bolts being metric.  Things have changed as time progressed from when I started my build. Seat belt bolts once had to be original blend cadmium blend. Then it went to reduced cadmium plating and now the bolts supplied by Securon are bright plated and have the seat belt logo on bolt head. Don`t know if this logo is essential. Will find out on the day if they don`t mind my million question book.



this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #336 on: April 15, 2020, 07:23:20 PM
Things have come quite a way  in the supply of iva compliant things for the home builder since I first started on my buggy.

In order to fit a compliant seat belt system to a roll hoop or roll cage you will have to resort to using a 4 point fixing version. (Not lap belts are no acceptable and will nor comply with an iva examination).

The 4 point version is needed to allow fixing the retractor local to the floorpan and the roll hoop or cage upright becomes the "B" pillar fixing point. (The retractor cannot fit here and be made compliant).

Securon have recently introduced a 4 point fixing retractable belt system that can operate in any direction. This is the version to get and they are not expensive. This allows the retractor to fit at floor. On buggy flat "seat area or on the vertical side bit of the tub at raer "seat area. Very simple to adjust and works just as it says it will. Also E marked which is necessary for compliance. (Will go into more detail re- adjustment\alignment later.

Photo shows the roll hoop "B Pillar" fixing. (UNF thread)



this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #337 on: April 15, 2020, 10:15:39 PM
Paul,

Might also be worth investigating these guys as they custom made me some 3 point belts with retractors that operate perfectly, even at an angle




Nice bit of labeling too  :D





Full details on my build thread  ;)

http://www.beachbuggy.info/index.php/topic,20.msg73478.html#msg73478
01803-391680
dave@dndservices.co.uk



this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #338 on: April 16, 2020, 08:23:01 AM
Hi Dave....  Hope you are all keep ing well.

I think I  may be mistaken in thinking the all angle retractor was a new innovation by Securon. I have Securon belts fitted as will be seen in my next postings. I was under the impression that the retractor pendulum had to remein vertical in order for the belt to be able to extend from reel. Securon have a mechanism on one end of the retractor that I will show in a photo. This gave me an issue with clearance as the belts are not handed. (You will see what I mean in later photo). I have the roll bar positioned just an inch closer to the tub than turned out to be ideal for retractor clearance. The retractors you have do not appear to need the mechanism and would have been an easier fit for my buggy. I fully understand iva examination wanting to keep an individual safe but if you read the 18 pages in the manual the diagrams show the fitting of underside stress plates as being a simple way of load spreading. (stress requirement is loading of 1.5 tonnes at impact). On a flat floorpan simples. On a unmodified beetle floorpan not so simple. (4mm plate can be bent to z angles etc with ease in a machine shop. At home ... :'(   I will look further into the belts you have in order to keep builds simple for folks).


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #339 on: April 16, 2020, 05:07:55 PM
Here is a photo showing retractor fixing point.....   Looks similar to what you can see in Dave`s photo. Note the fibreglass has been cut away to allow the right angled bracket to sit directly on the floorpan upper surface. Glass fibre removed because it will crack when under correct bolt\nut torque. The plate also gives a footprint for the Flatlands roll bar base to sit on fully. The bracket is 4mm thick. It sits upon the floorpan which in turn has a sqare tube within the "U" section. Underneath which I cannot at the moment photograph clearly lies the stress plate. This is a "Z" shape. (Note iva requirement is 4mm thick plate with 100mm x100mm area minimum).  Not possible to fit a flat plate as yout can see from the severe floorpan convolutions. (The rear corner section of the floorpan could be cut out and a boxish shaped piece welded in to give a flat surface for a flat stress plate. (Let`s see how my concoction fares at examination).

Any bolts used other than the standard Grade 5 specific seat belt fixings will be discussed later as this is an open area and I won`t know if my mix\match solution is compatible.

I made the right angled bracket longer than I may now need so this can be sorted later. I left sufficient room for a fixing hole forward of the roll bar, (as dave has used on his).

Always thought seat belts would be handed but they are not. The Securon version has an extension piece, see the right hand side. This is the two part pendulum position adjuster. Fine on the nearside but this extension points backover on the offside... :'( :'(  Roll bar just a tad too far back to give a nice bit of clearance between adjuster end and body tub. (Easily fixed bt cutting out fibreglass but I really didn`t want to do that and won`t unless I have to).

As a guide for roll hoop positioning put your foot in between roll bar and tub vertical surface and you would not have my issue.

Roll Hoop...... I know Flatlands version has been through  iva but that was a long time ago so I will see how mine fares. It`s not the thickest of walled tube.  now then with regard to a roll hoop or roll cage ideally it would be made of CDS of the correct diameter and wall thickness as use by the FIA lads. (CDS is cold drawn steel and I think this is a seamless tube. If I am wrong here please correct me). The hoop or cage could be painted or chrome plated). (Stainless does not have the ssame strength).



this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #340 on: April 16, 2020, 05:30:12 PM
"B Pillar"    placement...  This fixing point has a specific placing requirement.   This will depend on the angle that you have a roll hoop placed... The positioning is determined by refernce to the seating position of the driver\passenger. Belt angle over shoulder must not be abrupt. Belt must passs over shoulder muscle and lie across neck joint.

Also fixing is subject to radii checks.  Photo later showing cover for upper surface. The Securon metal section has rounded edges so may comply with radii requirement or you could add something soft to edges.



this user is offline snoopy

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Reply #341 on: April 16, 2020, 05:35:13 PM
The son in law uses an autograaa space frame fabricator near Pendock ioff the M50 when I picked his car up I asked about a simple buggy hoop 50mm dia 2 mm wall cds tube was 14 a metre plus bending. wil have to send them a roll hoop drawing and ask for the full cost.
the old gp hoops were more like exhaust tubing than a proper safety device.

What is the iva requirement for the roll hoop top mounting and or bracing as it carries the belt top mount.


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #342 on: April 16, 2020, 05:38:56 PM
Here is the 3rd mounting point on nearside. (Note this bracket lays on top of rhe fibreglass for the moment, Waiting to be sure it is the correct position before cutting out more f`glass...),

4mm thick as usual. Hole is just over 14mm dia to aloow fitting of the seatbelt bolt spacer. (7\16" UNF bolt).





this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #343 on: April 16, 2020, 05:49:36 PM

What is the iva requirement for the roll hoop top mounting and or bracing as it carries the belt top mount.

Hi Keith.... As I understand things..... Roll hoop mounting to be a 5\16" UNF threaded boss at a point that allows belt to sit over shoulder muscle and not neck\shoulder joint. The boss has to go through the tube and not welded onto the tube surface only. (ie needs welding both sides of tube).  Roll hoop must be triangulated using two tubes. The two tubes to fit to the rear tub. Tub end of tube to have 4mm minimum thick plate, 100 x 100 minimum. Plate also on opposite side of fibreglass (ie fibreglass as middle of steel sandwich).   Structural bracing at these two tub points may be asked for also... Seat belt mounting bolt Grade 5 7\16" unf. Other fixings grade 10.9 0r 12.1.. Stanless an absolute no no.  ;-)up ;-)up


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #344 on: April 16, 2020, 05:55:20 PM
Here is what I hope is the final thing.... ;-)up ;-)up

Leaviing stress plate descriptions until I know tney are acceptable. It would be pointless to upload photo`s of something that may fail dismally   ;D ;D