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November 18, 2018, 07:47:14 AM

BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED

This is a discussion for the topic BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED on the board Members Buggies.

Author Topic: BIRTH OF A BUGGY CONTINUED  (Read 24429 times)

this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #225 on: April 29, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
And all you need for the simple process of adjusting the link pins. (Just noticed from the photo I haven`t replaced the grease nipples).



this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #226 on: July 17, 2018, 12:16:21 PM
Ok.... for me the jury is in.... Sticking with Pertonix ignition... I can see no reason why this should not run "for ever" and as far as repo contact breakers and condensers are concerned this module set is a simple but brilliant option.
(If anyone knows where I can get a contact breaker set and condenser that is robust please let me know as VW used them for decades on millions of cars).

Here are pictures of my Pertronix "test station" which worked a treat, cost me nothing and I now know beyond any doubt that the module is functioning perfectly.

I can see why there is so much negative comment on the use of these units but I am convinced this is down to installation and associated components. I will go into this in detail as I would not attempt to fit one of these without a load of other checks being done with great care prior to attaching any of the two wires first. Not difficult but will take a bit of writing up.




Inside distributor





Light illuminated in photo but is flashing on and off as the engine rotates




this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #227 on: July 17, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
A quick disclaimer before I continue with this..... Should you attempt this checking of a Pertronix module, and any one can.. you literally just need a low wattage 12 volt bulb, a 12v battery and a few lengths of wire, please please read what I write more than once. Scribble down the connections. Check at least three times that you have scribbled down correctly. Put all wires in place and check 3 times you have them connected correctly... I don`t want any-one to pop 200 worth of gear. ;-)up ;-)up 
Petronix Ignitor 1 is the basic on off switching module with magnet rotor (Hall Effect). This one is the original of course and will either work or if you "pop it" it will not and it is scrap.
Petronix Ignitor 2 is updated from 1 in that Pertronix state this one will adjust for dwell automatically. (Don`t worry about what dwell is just note it is desirable). This module also is supposed to have resistance to incorrect wiring of the two wires and less prone to failure if the ignition is left switched on without engine running.

I believe you can tell the difference between version 1 & 2 by module colour. That is 1 is a black casing & 2 is a red casing. (I cannot guarantee this is factual).

Petronix Ignitor 3.... Only for 8 cylinder motors.


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #228 on: July 17, 2018, 06:06:31 PM
Here is what to attach where.

Note I have used a separate battery to provide a known good positive supply and a known good ground with the link for ground being made directly to the module metal base. Turned the engine over with the plugs removed and no feed to coil. (This way the distributor ignitor rotor is not spinning so fast that the bulb flashes too quickly to see how the module cuts off and back on.

When you first connect up the bulb can either be on or off depending where the magnets in the rotor are. Don`t leave all powered up without the engine running just as a precaution. It`s unlikely the "duty cycle" of the module will be 100%.



this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #229 on: July 18, 2018, 03:05:34 PM
Ok... Here we go... Old school views & old school methods. If you want to fit a Pertronix Ignitor you should do some ground work first so that it works first time. You will have come across many times on the forum of the statement that a good earth is vital in car electrics and it is. However, and I came across a statement on P`s website, that nearly all of the returned units that owners thought did not work were fine and that nearly all cases proved to be insufficient positive voltage. That surprised me a bit as I thought it would be 50\50 + & - issues. Anyway step back even further.

The "engine" for the ignitor is the coil. Even for standard points system you need a coil in good order. A weak one will give you all sorts of issues. I prefer oil filled coils. All high voltage transformers, coils and condensers were oil filled. This was for cooling. (Oil plays an important part in cooling even in a air cooled motor by transferring heat generated in the cylinder).

How do you know if your coil is good or weak... Old school test..... disconnect all leads from B+, - & coil HT lead. Preferably remove coil to a bench.

Use a 12 volt battery and connect the negative of battery to negative tag on coil. Connect a lead to the positive side of battery but not yet to B+ of coil. You now need to have a ground, (earth connection available for the high tension side) so run a lead from neg of battery to something metallic to mimic the car earth. (I don`t like using the battery neg post).   Shove a high tension lead into the coil top making sure the lead is tight & secure. Connect a spark plug to lead. (Use rubber glove here as believe me if the spark jumps through you it gives a hefty jolt).

In one hand hold the positive wire ready to briefly touch the coil B+ In the other hand touch the end of the spark plug to your mimic negative earth point. Be prepared not to flinch next. Briefly, but firmly, touch the B+ coil terminal with the positive lead. You should have a big spark at the plug. If the spark is weak then the coil is not up to scratch so replace it.

What`s happening here..... Inside the coil you have a winding of wire where the two ends are B+ and negative. Within this coil there is another winding of wire but it has many more turns. One end is a negative and the other your high tension positive. Because the inner winding has more turns you are inducing a voltage in this which instead of being 12 volts will be in the region of 15,000 volts in a good coil. What you are doing by touching the B+ briefly is mimicing the action of the distributor points which is just a simple switch.

Right your coil is a good one but sadly this is just the start.

(As an aside, whilst we are on about old school checks, it`s simple to check a condenser on the distributor which is running a set of points. An iffy condenser will give hesitation on running the motor. When you know your coil is good rotate the distributor until the heel of the moving part of the points is not on a lobe of the shaft. Using a screwdriver open the Point`s quickly and you should see a spark. If the condenser is iffy the spark will look week and be orange coloured. If the condenser is fine you should get a good spark blue-ish in colour).

Back to Pertronix next... ;-)up


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #230 on: August 02, 2018, 05:49:20 PM
Seats in the way so set up for trial fitting....

Seats need to comply with IVA in a number of ways. Seat structure, differing rules for fixed back or recliners and so on ... so... here is a sketch as a start. Don`t forget to look at the examiners manual, section 15, and the other sections relating to fixing to chassis etc.

This sketch is a start and you must be able to comply to the 90 degree rule. This is how it is checked...



The manner in which they mount is specific hence another photo showing the runners and angled mounts. Note that the bolts in the photo are just trial bits. Your bolts that fit runner to the seat and runner to floor need to be high tensile.. ie 12,9 grade. Floor fitting involves stress plates. (More on stress plates later). The seat runner must have dual release\lock on both runners each seat.
 This is a difficult section to try and be a step, 1,2, 3, 4  etc as seat build cannot be separated from any roll cage, triangulated hoop or seat belt fitment. The all interact in consideration of each other. (pretty straight forward for harness.. not so standard 3 or 4 point seat belts). I will try and not jump about any more than I need to.





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Reply #231 on: August 02, 2018, 05:52:02 PM
Bad photo of runner & mount. These are on wrong way round .. The section fitting to floor should extend out over not in over.. ;D ;D


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Reply #232 on: August 02, 2018, 11:57:08 PM
interesting they specify 12.9 bolts do they also specify a diameter I know some production ones use 6mm bolts which may be why.


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #233 on: August 03, 2018, 07:48:19 AM
8mm Keith..   Along with... and this is open to individual interpretation by examiner as the book gives a generic underside stress plate of 100mm x 100mm x 5mm thick steel. (Generic.. a flat plate). Wierdly in practice this flat plate can be bent to abut against existing structure.
Will add a bit more later today in how the decide if your windscreen is in fact a "windscreen" or not.. all to do with the seat itself when installed in place. Somewhere, sometime, somebody was paid to create this overly complex bit of legislation.


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #234 on: August 03, 2018, 05:54:38 PM
Seat in relation to other aspects part 1..

Windscreen.....  When is it a windscreen and when not. When dimensions reach a threshold it is a windscreen and has to meet glass type, EU regs, and have 2 speed wipers and demisting. Ok then fit an "aero screen"... Yes but it has to meet the criteria for not being a "windscree.

Photo below with the measurements required... it`s not as complicated as it first looks. But look at the 40+ in the table. Dimension "A".... accurate to 0.1 of a mm...
Really ;D  Waiting to see how they measure with this type of accuracy.



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Reply #235 on: August 03, 2018, 06:49:32 PM
is this for Mr average or do they measure the owner to set the seat position as it will vary if you have a pygmy or giant sat in it as they may have to adjust the seat position to swap drivers. Overly complicated these days but good to see you tackling it all.


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #236 on: August 04, 2018, 08:12:00 AM
Hi again Keith.....  Having talked to the local dvsa techs,,,,  it`s the 25 degree angle of the seat back that`s the main point to work from. If your seat is a recliner it is set at this angle. I cannot see how this can be precise on something who`s suspension can change so easily. The Cobra seats I have are angled at 25 degrees, have inbuilt head restraint and so hopefully pre- inspection correct. So far I have noted the relation of the seat to floorpan, the seat to forward vision and next will talk about seat to roll cage and seat belt interaction.

(I would think that much of what I put here is as originally created for mas produced vehicles and this is the bulk of M1. I can only think that for BIVA, the basic compliance, that the reality of actual testing will be more "practical". I am hoping that when I get a pass I will be able to say that getting a buggy through inspection is a practical proposition). What would you say if I told you something like a military Tank requires IVA inspection...Hard to believe but it`s their in black and white.. ;D


this user is offline Hugh

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Reply #237 on: August 04, 2018, 08:20:38 AM
'...a military Tank requires IVA inspection.'

The bureaucrats like to control all aspects and we'd not want a tank trundling into battle with seat backs at 26 degrees !
Hugh


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Reply #238 on: August 05, 2018, 07:03:51 PM
Hi Hugh..... only "human beings" could dream this sort of stuff up... 


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Reply #239 on: August 05, 2018, 08:31:30 PM
'...a military Tank requires IVA inspection.'

The bureaucrats like to control all aspects and we'd not want a tank trundling into battle with seat backs at 26 degrees !

that will stop anyone getting IVA on a challenger tank then as the driver is lets say reclined.