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May 24, 2020, 10:28:16 PM

Digging out stuff from all nooks and crannies

This is a discussion for the topic Digging out stuff from all nooks and crannies on the board Beach Buggy Engine and Exhaust Help.

Author Topic: Digging out stuff from all nooks and crannies  (Read 1034 times)

this user is offline Paul1953

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on: October 30, 2019, 02:55:52 PM
As I look through a slowly shrinking collection of bits and pieces from donor beetle and bits bought over the last 3 years came across a couple of these. They are nos originals and reminded me of a query in a very recent thread regarding heater rise pipe gasket with small hole. For all intents and purposes you will see the hole is of 6mm dia.

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this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #1 on: October 30, 2019, 02:58:12 PM


this user is online Hugh

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Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 03:22:57 PM
Good to see Paul.

Another Paul (Merscury) secured a batch of these a year or so back and kindly sold me some. Yet to be fitted - just waiting for some proper buggy carb issues to warrant their use !

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Hugh


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 03:53:15 PM
Hi Hugh.....  VW did recommend the smaller holed gasket to be fitted on a specific side but for love nor money I cannot remember which.  ;D


this user is online Hugh

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Reply #4 on: October 30, 2019, 05:10:28 PM
Don't worry Paul it happens to us all but Merscury, Maxdavid, Snoopy, Farmer Rob, Flags or Uncle Tom Cobley will be along shortly to 'remind' you.

I hope the darkening days and cooling temperatures are going to tempt you back into your workshop/shed to continue your master class bulletins on IVA buggy building.

I remain fully prepared to under write your noble endeavours should you decide you no longer wish to ride around in an open topped yellow buggy but would rather view the world from a inside a climate controlled 'proper' car !
Hugh


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Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 05:31:39 PM
I have installed the newer equal ones but fitted a small flat washer into the dish to reduce the size and get imbalance. As for side fitment I put them on the right for number 2 thinking 1432 order means 4 supplies full force first in then 2 fires after with less flow so you get imbalance


this user is offline Flags

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Reply #6 on: October 31, 2019, 10:41:15 AM
Hi Hugh.....  VW did recommend the smaller holed gasket to be fitted on a specific side but for love nor money I cannot remember which.  ;D
from what I have learnt it was more about velocity of the gases than an imbalance. VW designed the exhaust system so it only flowed through the heat risers 1 way. To get these working as they were intended you would need a genuine Beetle exhaust system and we all know how fugly they look on a buggy.


this user is offline Luddite

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Reply #7 on: October 31, 2019, 01:30:31 PM
The hot gases go from right to left on the original setup (gases from 2/4 flow towards 1/3). So the small-holed gasket goes on the left.
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is...


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #8 on: October 31, 2019, 03:34:52 PM
I don`t think exhaust type is critical to the point where you would not benefit from a hot riser.  The idea was to create a depression on one side of the riser pipe in order to promote a hot gas flow throughput.

Type 1 engines were obviously designed around the Beetle internal location within the back enclosure alongwith hot air directly to the carb and a manual then auto choke to complement a cold start. These engines performed flawlessly in the coldest and hottest of regions without any problems starting either from cold or from hot. I have mentioned before I owned Beetles as my every day drive after passing my test in 1970. Also a buggy from 1974 through two very cold winters as my daily drive.

I agree 100% with Pete when he states a hot riser, correctly set auto choke, and hot air to carb inlet is crucial. My Beetles all had riser pipes that ran sufficiently hot to burn your skin off should you accidently brush the pipe with your hand. If you have a less than piping hot riser make the effort and clean it out as you will be either totally blocked or more like have a very reduced internal diameter. Yes cleaning takes a bit of doing but you would only need to do it thoroughly once.

Any non standard set up, twin carb and so on then you have to accept that ypu have moved away from the original concept that was flawless.. 21 million plus beetles super reliability must say Mr porsche got it right..  ;-)up ;-)up


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #9 on: October 31, 2019, 03:45:07 PM
Don't worry Paul it happens to us all but Merscury, Maxdavid, Snoopy, Farmer Rob, Flags or Uncle Tom Cobley will be along shortly to 'remind' you.

I hope the darkening days and cooling temperatures are going to tempt you back into your workshop/shed to continue your master class bulletins on IVA buggy building.

I remain fully prepared to under write your noble endeavours should you decide you no longer wish to ride around in an open topped yellow buggy but would rather view the world from a inside a climate controlled 'proper' car !

Hi Hugh... funny you should mention the weather... Am back out beavering away. As of Monday have had to put a jumper, coat and beanie hat on.
I am warm but everything I touch is really cold.

Can see light at the end of the tunnel. Even have thoughts about a second build but have yet to pluck up the courage to tell the missus    :( :( ;-)up

As for "climate control"... probably won`t surprise you to hear that I have never once used it in "auto" always have it in manual with heat flow direction and so on how I think it should be. Have had quite a few cars with slide tilt sunroof because I hate air conditioning even though I do accept air con does improve demist capability.  ;-)(-;


this user is offline Flags

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Reply #10 on: October 31, 2019, 04:21:03 PM
I don`t think exhaust type is critical to the point where you would not benefit from a hot riser.  The idea was to create a depression on one side of the riser pipe in order to promote a hot gas flow throughput.

Type 1 engines were obviously designed around the Beetle internal location within the back enclosure alongwith hot air directly to the carb and a manual then auto choke to complement a cold start. These engines performed flawlessly in the coldest and hottest of regions without any problems starting either from cold or from hot. I have mentioned before I owned Beetles as my every day drive after passing my test in 1970. Also a buggy from 1974 through two very cold winters as my daily drive.

I agree 100% with Pete when he states a hot riser, correctly set auto choke, and hot air to carb inlet is crucial. My Beetles all had riser pipes that ran sufficiently hot to burn your skin off should you accidently brush the pipe with your hand. If you have a less than piping hot riser make the effort and clean it out as you will be either totally blocked or more like have a very reduced internal diameter. Yes cleaning takes a bit of doing but you would only need to do it thoroughly once.

Any non standard set up, twin carb and so on then you have to accept that ypu have moved away from the original concept that was flawless.. 21 million plus beetles super reliability must say Mr porsche got it right..  ;-)up ;-)up
No Paul, cut an original Beetle exhaust in half and you will see the heat risers are only a small part in the big picture. The flow was created by the gases flowing through the riser being scavenged at 1 of the 2 silencer outlets. No one that I know has ever suffered with icing on a twin carb setup which I assume is due to heat soak from the cylinder heads and the venturi effect being shared by both carbs so any deviation from a stock exhaust on a single carb is the problem.  Even the lack of a choke on IDF's or Kaddies is only a pain for a minute or 2 In my experience .


this user is offline farmer rob

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Reply #11 on: October 31, 2019, 05:13:06 PM
All the genuine Beetle exhaust systems that I have seen are designed to flow the gases one way as Flags say's. But any after market exhaust system where the heat risers are connected straight into number 2 and 4 exhaust pipes will not work very well at all, due to its firing order, you get an even backwards and forwards pulses. A smaller hole in one gasket does give it slightly more flow but I do not think it matters which side you put it in!. I think they only help to block the heater risers and with such little heating effect I think it was why VW gave up on them  ;)

Rob


this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #12 on: November 01, 2019, 08:07:45 AM
Interesting comments here.... Have an observation that is in no way meant to be a means of causing argument.....

Before I joined this forum I had my engine rebuilt professionally by Daz Chandler. (This guy will be familiar with any member of my age and from the North East). I had a great deal of issue starting this motor until Farmer Rob helped by suggesting I heat my carburretor up in boiling water. This worked a charm and released the small ball bearings. Engine started first time and ran surprisingly smoothly with basic settings.

Now then it is a type 1 engine that I fitted with a second hand pair of rusty old cannons just to run engine up for firt time since rebuild. The heat riser pipe came up to skin burning temperature in a couple of minutes which was a great plus. 

I will be visiting Mike to have my two silencers fitted up with a bespoke system that will satisfy iva regarding noise levels etc. When complete, and the buggy is "on the road", I will dig out my infra red thermometer and take some readings across the riser pipe side to side. All just out of curiosity.


this user is offline farmer rob

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Reply #13 on: November 01, 2019, 08:43:50 AM
Yes Paul, that would be very interesting. When I run engines up on the bench over the winter, I keep my hands away from the exhaust hot bit's lol but after about 1 min you can see the centre part of the inlet manifold change colour with condensation and trying to ice without a warm air feed. And if the outside temperature is close to or below freezing and you have no warm air feed, the engine will not tick-over after the choke has come off with an after market exhaust as the heat risers can not cope, just my findings ;-)up ;-)up

Rob


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Reply #14 on: November 01, 2019, 09:01:49 AM
VW fitted twin hot spots on later engines guess this was for the weaker running later emissions carburettors where as Rob says when the choke comes off they stalled on initial start up as a single hotspot manifold was still too cold.  The inside of a genuine VW silencer contains a lot of pipe work it is not just an expansion box.