Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 09, 2021, 07:44:33 AM

Consultation re IVA emission testing.

This is a discussion for the topic Consultation re IVA emission testing. on the board Beach Buggy IVA / SVA Help.

Author Topic: Consultation re IVA emission testing.  (Read 3898 times)

this user is offline pepsi81

  • Buggy Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 2086
  • Whitehaven, Cumbria
  • Purple GP 2
Reply #15 on: February 06, 2018, 07:13:09 PM

 ;-)up

Once more unto  the breach :o


this user is online snoopy

  • MBC Moderator
  • Buggy Fanatic
  • ******
  • Posts: 8767
  • evesham. 07757010432
  • Kango ss/ Jas lwb
Reply #16 on: February 06, 2018, 07:48:06 PM
Filled it out and left a few blanks as some is not relevant to what we do.


this user is offline pepsi81

  • Buggy Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 2086
  • Whitehaven, Cumbria
  • Purple GP 2
Reply #17 on: February 06, 2018, 08:11:02 PM

Completed the survey. Must say, it tends to lead down a path, to where I don’t know 8)


this user is offline Paul1953

  • Buggy Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 2068
  • Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham
  • MANX SWB
Reply #18 on: February 07, 2018, 09:32:42 AM
Just a few more words regarding IVA and an air cooled engine.

The "stumbling block" at IVA examination appears to be a result of tightening up of what examiners can "get away with" for lack of better words in judgement of the vehicle presented to them relating to the IVA build manual "statements" and subsequent examiner interpretation. Common sense at the examiner end was very evident when I first talked to vosa. That, in my opinion, is the prime positive nature of vehicle examiners of all kinds. I will never accept that a rule is a rule and should be adhered to letter for letter. We have to rules... that I accept... but there must always be sensible interpretation of rules.

IVA "manual" .... M1 "Standard" & M1 "Basic"...... Home built vehicles are currently covered by "Basic". Standard requires "Documented Proof of Compliance" of structures. Such documentation results from "destructive testing". Within Basic "examiner judgement" allowed and documented proof not required for obvious reasons but... and here is the rub. Examiner can & will ask for documented proof if he has any doubt regarding the test category compliance.

So  air cooled engine ... V5 engine code is the "accepted norm". A VW provided "Birth Certificate" is now the only accepted document accepted as proof of engine originality and engine\chassis being number matching. Others have presented air cooled engines and have met resistance to compliance by examiners as using the engine code alone and say google searches of VW original scanned documents giving details of the year the code relates to is not considered specific enough.

There are precedents whereby vosa have listened to public opinion. Engines are one point that vosa backed down on.

For a period a vehicle presented for examination has to have documented proof that the engine, original or re-built, had been fitted by a professional person.. i.e. garage mechanic.
This requirement has been withdrawn and any one can fit the engine.

Since reading Manx Dave`s post yesterday I have looked into emission standards that the Mexico built air cooled engines achieve.  These have fuel injection of a basic kind and have a cat installed. Sadly comes no where close to EU5 or EU6 emission standards.

Why oh why does there always have to be a fight between the "common man" and pen pushing bureaucrats ?


this user is online snoopy

  • MBC Moderator
  • Buggy Fanatic
  • ******
  • Posts: 8767
  • evesham. 07757010432
  • Kango ss/ Jas lwb
Reply #19 on: February 07, 2018, 06:06:09 PM
The VW birth certificate that came with the recent buggy buy does not state engine number just 30 DIN-PS 1.2 liter the chassis number is the only thing on the Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen Zertificate apart from options M104 red leatherette upholstery and M353 Cannot be identified.

there may be trouble ahead if they enforce the acceptance of manufacturers info only.


this user is offline Paul1953

  • Buggy Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 2068
  • Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham
  • MANX SWB
Reply #20 on: February 08, 2018, 09:32:53 AM
Keith.

This is interesting. I had come to the understanding, incorrectly now I realise, that a birth certificate confirmed engine number as being the original unit fitted ex-works. Had a number of long conversations with the museum dept at w`burg and have misunderstood this somehow. I couldn't get a bc and they offered to refund my payment.  This simply because my donor was ex Utenahge.

My lack of bc is not the disappointment I thought it then.  Cannot say re-dvsa\dvla... but I am told by my local vosa tech only a bc is an acceptable document for a beetle based amateur built vehicle now at examination. This is not to say no bc no successful iva pass. Does mean coming to a mutual agreement regarding required emissions testing however as the only official document I have with the engine number on it is the UK issued V5C  ( 1993 N registration not 1975 which strangely was the first "n" back in 75)

So fed up with this crap that I got the shovel out last night after getting home from work to shovel the snow away from garage door. To get in ? No... just to take my frustration out on the snow.

Regardless of what the bureaucrats bring forth you will be seeing another yellow buggy on the road  ;D ;D



this user is online snoopy

  • MBC Moderator
  • Buggy Fanatic
  • ******
  • Posts: 8767
  • evesham. 07757010432
  • Kango ss/ Jas lwb
Reply #21 on: February 08, 2018, 07:26:52 PM
Hi Paul it seems strange that they need a birth cert when he vehicle has been radically changed for the SVA, I could understand it if you were trying to get an old beetle registered and updated.

Bureaucracy is the way forwards it seems,


this user is offline Doon L004

  • Beach Buggy
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Rutland, UK
  • LWB Doon, L004-03
    • Doon L004
Reply #22 on: February 08, 2018, 09:05:20 PM
The VW birth certificate that came with the recent buggy buy does not state engine number just 30 DIN-PS 1.2 liter the chassis number is the only thing on the Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen Zertificate apart from options M104 red leatherette upholstery and M353 Cannot be identified.

there may be trouble ahead if they enforce the acceptance of manufacturers info only.

When I got my certificate in 2012 it came with a separate letter that stated for data protection reasons the engine number cannot be shown on the certificate alongside the vehicle identify number!

However they did confirm from the engine number details I sent them the engine was that originally fitted to the car.

Chris


this user is online snoopy

  • MBC Moderator
  • Buggy Fanatic
  • ******
  • Posts: 8767
  • evesham. 07757010432
  • Kango ss/ Jas lwb
Reply #23 on: February 08, 2018, 11:06:33 PM
so you need to send them an engine number because of data protection then they can confirm it was original I wonder how they would reply to an incorrect engine number for the vin, I should think there are very few buggies with original matching numbers as we would have a lot of 1200 30bhp single port engines fitted and possibly some 1100 24bhp ones.


this user is online Manxdavid

  • Forum Moderator
  • Buggy Queen
  • ******
  • Posts: 4864
  • Anglesey, North Wales.
  • Meyers Manx UK-00-002
Reply #24 on: February 11, 2018, 09:53:41 PM
Some draft letters to MPs etc have been prepared and posted on the 'BIVA Draft Letters' Facebook page, I've not read them as they've not accepted me as a member there yet, I'm just passing it on.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/148944219148084/
Photos printed on genuine ILFORD® paper.

"Ah, Beach Buggies, sure, just a quick cheap way of getting a few more years out of a rusty Beetle. You can throw one together in a weekend." anon.


this user is online Manxdavid

  • Forum Moderator
  • Buggy Queen
  • ******
  • Posts: 4864
  • Anglesey, North Wales.
  • Meyers Manx UK-00-002
Reply #25 on: February 13, 2018, 11:44:00 AM
I cobbled this together and sent to my MP, edited from someone else's suggestion on another forum-


"Dear .....

I am writing to you to bring your attention to the Governments “Road Vehicles Improving Air quality and Safety’ consultation.


https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety


I am very concerned about the section containing Kit Cars, Page 16, 4.10 - 4.13. In this section it is proposed that all cars going through Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) would have to comply with current new car emission laws. IVA is a “Super MOT” that a kit or modified car has to pass to be registered or re-registered. Some kit cars and vehicles such as conversions for the disabled are based on new cars, so compliance would not be a problem, but modified classics would never pass these emission laws.


The technology in a modern engine with computers controlling emissions is out of reach of the average person building a modified classic or kit car, even major manufacturers like VW have been caught having to cheat. At the moment emissions checks carried out at the IVA test are based on the current MOT limits and are determined by the age of the engine used and not the complete car. I belive this is a fair way to determine compliance and do not belive it needs to change. These specialist vehicles are seldom used on a daily basis, their use generally reserved for 'high days and holidays', weekend use and travel to car shows, charity events and similar, hence their impact on the environment would be unmeasurably small.


There are enthusiastic amateurs like myself all over the country building vehicles in our own garages. We have considerable knowledge, time and money invested in our projects but if these proposals are implemented they will kill a multi million pound industry stone dead, affecting the jobs of kit manufacturers, part suppliers, specialist craftspeople, magazine staff, car show organisers and many others.


I feel with a relatively short consultation time of 2nd February - 2nd March 2018 and an implimentation date in July this year, that this is not a consultation but a notice of intent. There is no time for due process and no time to consult, only to take initial opinions.
There is obviously a lack of understanding by consultation authors on what type of vehicle uses IVA and of the DVLA rules for obtaining original vehicle identity.


The recent EU Road Worthiness Testing Directive due to be implemented this May, directs “substantially changed” vehicles towards IVA but if this proposal goes through, IVA will not be an option for these vehicles.


The “Kit Car” section of this proposal needs to be dropped as it is totally unworkable in practice.


I hope I have given you some insight into the situation and I urge you to take this up with the relevant Minister as soon as possible, or a rewarding hobby and a whole way of life for many people will be lost forever.


Yours faithfully,

David Jones (plus address and phone number)"
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 01:56:13 PM by Manxdavid »
Photos printed on genuine ILFORD® paper.

"Ah, Beach Buggies, sure, just a quick cheap way of getting a few more years out of a rusty Beetle. You can throw one together in a weekend." anon.


this user is offline Hugh

  • Buggy Prince
  • *
  • Posts: 3206
  • North Herefordshire
  • Mantaray Mk II
Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 01:01:11 PM
David this is good.

Minor typo:

'I feel with a relatively short consultation time of 2nd February - 2nd March 2018 and an implication date in July...'

Should be:

'I feel with a relatively short consultation time of 2nd February - 2nd March 2018 and an implementation date in July...'


Hugh


this user is online Manxdavid

  • Forum Moderator
  • Buggy Queen
  • ******
  • Posts: 4864
  • Anglesey, North Wales.
  • Meyers Manx UK-00-002
Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 01:06:59 PM
David this is good.

Minor typo:

'I feel with a relatively short consultation time of 2nd February - 2nd March 2018 and an implication date in July...'

Should be:

'I feel with a relatively short consultation time of 2nd February - 2nd March 2018 and an implementation date in July...'

Thanks, I spotted that myself but too late, it's gone off now, my MP's first language is Welsh so he may not spot it.
Photos printed on genuine ILFORD® paper.

"Ah, Beach Buggies, sure, just a quick cheap way of getting a few more years out of a rusty Beetle. You can throw one together in a weekend." anon.


this user is offline Paul1953

  • Buggy Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 2068
  • Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham
  • MANX SWB
Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 02:44:12 PM
Following suit.


this user is offline rudis_dad

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • Burnley, Lancs
Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 08:30:23 AM
I know it's not looking good at the moment, but if this ridiculous proposal were to go ahead then there's all sorts of legal challenges that could be brought against it.

For a start, it's depriving thousands of people of a peaceful, legitimate and satisfying leisure pursuit, as well as preventing countless more from going about their lawful business; this alone could be challenged under the UN Convention on Human Rights, because no government which has signed up to this has the right to prevent it's citizens from going about any peaceful or legal activity. There's probably loads of other stuff as well.

The other thing is, and perish the thought that it ever does come into force, but what do we do then? Hang up our tools, drive our buggys down to Beachy Head and hurl ourselves off?

I think not. The answer is to work around it, whilst working on the means to either circumvent it legally, or develop the means to comply that works for everyone. I've seen this happen many times before particularly in the custom motorcycle scene - there was some fearful proposed legislation coming out of Brussels in the late 90s and early 00s but we fought it every step of the way - we didn't win on everything, but we gained concessions. We learned to work around things. We developed new ways of working so that we could comply or at least make it look that way. "Where there's the will, there's a way!"

Don't forget that in places like Germany and Switzerland, car modding or special building is the preserve of the fabulously wealthy if they want to use their vehicles on the public highway - German legislation in particular more or less forbids any modifications from standard unless that modification complies with TuV regulation. Yet the scene in Germany is in rude health. It can be the same here.

It might not seem like it at times, but don't forget that Britain is a democracy - we, the general public, have a very powerful weapon in our arsenal, one that every politician wants us to use but is fearful of at the same time, and that is the Vote.
Do Unto Others Before They Do Unto You.