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March 09, 2021, 07:09:45 AM

Consultation re IVA emission testing.

This is a discussion for the topic Consultation re IVA emission testing. on the board Beach Buggy IVA / SVA Help.

Author Topic: Consultation re IVA emission testing.  (Read 3897 times)

this user is offline Manxdavid

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on: February 06, 2018, 11:06:55 AM
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety

They're at it again, trying to get IVA tested kitcars etc meeting current emissions specs, ie fuel injection and cats!

Chapter 4, page 16, 4.11

Consultation ends in LESS than 4 weeks, regs to come into force in July 08! This is not even being lead by the EU.

Kev and the NSRA are on it:

http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/licensing-legal-section/more-heavy-sh..-530026#post4427482
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 11:24:02 AM by Manxdavid »
Photos printed on genuine ILFORD® paper.

"Ah, Beach Buggies, sure, just a quick cheap way of getting a few more years out of a rusty Beetle. You can throw one together in a weekend." anon.


this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #1 on: February 06, 2018, 12:05:05 PM
Here we go again     >:(

Suggest everyone has a crack at this survey - its full of jargon and acronyms, but if they end up with a series of confusing answers, then all the better

https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...ity-and-safety



OK guys, as before . . . .

No ranting or silly comments saying it is unfair, etc etc, - lets keep it constructive, because that last sentence illustrates yet again that someone has no concept whatsoever of older cars on the road and this is looking like the start of clamping down on non-standard engines too.




So,  some of the proposals . . . .



Kit cars
4.10
Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet WLTP, given that at present they are not required to meet NEDC or the
latest EU standards. Instead they are tested to age-appropriate MOT standards, on the basis of the date of manufacture or first use of the engine.
4.11
We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older engine. In other words the current relaxation for emissions according to the age of the engine will no longer apply.
4.12
Reconstructed (restored) classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet the latest MOT standards, as long as the appearance of the vehicle is broadly unchanged and the engine is of the same capacity as that supplied with the vehicle when it was new.
4.13
When new vehicles were first required to be fitted with catalytic converters around 1992 (Euro 1 emissions standard), kit car makers typically used older engines which were not fitted with catalytic converters, hence the justification for age-appropriate testing of emissions based on date of engine manufacture or first use. The majority of the fleet is now vehicles up to 25 years old whose engines are fitted with catalytic converters, providing plenty of choice to the kit car builder




On the face of it, building a new car to a modern standard can only be viewed as a good thing, but for those of you trying to use an age related engine that was never fitted with fuel injection or cats, then I`m not entirely happy with where this is going, nor the implications of what happens next for those of us with non-standard engines in our vehicles.

 :-\


The biggest alarm bell for me though is this bit . . . .

Reconstructed (restored) classic cars undergoing IVA

Why? And under what circumstances would a "restored" car suddenly be questioned about IVA ?

Thats worrying  >:(
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 12:07:52 PM by Dave DND »
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this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #2 on: February 06, 2018, 12:19:40 PM
Thanks Dave... really killed my day this. If this is accurate, and the date is set in stone, this is a deadline for me like it or not.

IVA and air-cooled vw engines.... This is already a point of debate depending on which vosa examiner you get. Goes like this with more variation than I can type.
Engine date of build dictates current emission testing. to Jan 1975... smoke only.
After this c02s etc. The "younger" the engine the more it has meet with emissions from exhaust.  Later you need a cat and so on.
Simple eh?
Not likely ... Engine must be "original to chassis, must be original in build with no mods. How can a 40 year old engine still be original and run ok with no smoke?
At the very least replacement bearings, maybe big & little ends changed. Many a donor Beetle won`t have it`s original engine. Etc Etc but you still have the ah but`s and so on.
Then replacement crank cases, heads and re-built engines... Must have original parts !!!!   There are none are there? Repo bits only.
Rebuilt engine.. must have documentation from re-builder to prove was a pro re-build. (No longer a requirement to have engine fitted by pro outlet).
This barely covers it. 

If it comes to fitting a cat... that's ok but "fuel injection" ... havn`t I spent enough cash already..



this user is offline Manxdavid

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Reply #3 on: February 06, 2018, 12:21:51 PM
Photos printed on genuine ILFORD® paper.

"Ah, Beach Buggies, sure, just a quick cheap way of getting a few more years out of a rusty Beetle. You can throw one together in a weekend." anon.


this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #4 on: February 06, 2018, 12:56:48 PM
Rebuilt engine.. must have documentation from re-builder to prove was a pro re-build. (No longer a requirement to have engine fitted by pro outlet).
This barely covers it. 

Headed paper by someone who was a bona-fide self employed company just starting out and testing the water . . .

Pauls engine rebuilds - building VW engines since Feb 3rd 2018 . . . .   Ceased Trading Feb 4th 2018 . . . .    :-X



P.S.  look at some of the Megasquirt options if FI is needed   ;)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 12:58:49 PM by Dave DND »
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this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #5 on: February 06, 2018, 02:19:53 PM
Ok .... Have just spent a real long time completing this survey... and I mean a long time......  This is potentially serious for all amateur built cars, new or old. (Forgive me Dave.. The survey uses the words "Kit Car" and that is the tone).

There is far more to this that meets the eye at first.
Have pulled a couple of points as most of it is government "pen pusher waffle".

1). EU5 or 6 for new vehicles.... Fine no problem with that.
2). the cost of consultation and proposals..... Not interested as I don`t believe any government individual gives a monkies about tax payer spending.
3). Do I want to see a clean Brexit with the UK ignoring EU emission laws etc..... This can never happen.
4). Kit Cars. (Their term) + (Low volume manufacturers... under 1000\annum)..... IVA compliance with EU6 emission level.  I have no words for this. Use a Ford Sierra engine. Have access to an emissions engineer with the necessary hardware & software for setting up & measuring. Have access to fuel injection engineer with machine shop and unlimited time.  Have a major lottery win in the bank and ok should be
no problem. A air cooled boxer motor ... not a chance.
They now have my views, my comments etc but will common sense prevail?
Will any of this not be applied retrospectively?


Wish I had something positive to say.


this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
Wish I had something positive to say.


Don`t be too negative about it just yet . . . .

Remember the doom and gloom regarding the DVLA 8 point ruling and VHI status ?

Well, we all know how that ended . . .    ;)

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this user is offline Paul1953

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Reply #7 on: February 06, 2018, 02:26:29 PM
Trying to Dave...... Keep the flag flying.  ;-)up ;-)up ;-)up


this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #8 on: February 06, 2018, 02:34:32 PM
My genuine issue with this one is that I do not know quite how to fight or argue it on our behalf.

My understanding(?) was that any new cars being built to IVA standard already had to comply with modern legislation, and that was to include things like emmissions etc. Not really thought about the use of older VW engines and how they may or may not be viewed, but surely if building a "replica" of something with an age related engine then some sort of additional rules must be applied / bent?

My concern is how they seem to infer that any rebuilt or reconstructed classic cars are being subject to IVA, which would mean pretty much most of us on here, and how they are now starting to mention the use of "original" engines, including a cubic capacity that they left the factory with. Ok, this may only be applied to "new" build at the moment, but if(?) that gets passed, then it would certainly mean trouble for all of us with what may come next. For those of you out there fitting Mazda / Honda / Subaru and Rover V8 powerplants, I`m not sure how these will be treated in the future and whether a modern engine in a Buggy will soon require emmissions tests based on the year of engine, not the aged vehicle.

 :-\

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this user is offline Doon L001

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Reply #9 on: February 06, 2018, 04:06:04 PM
Its one hell of a survey with tons of initials in it.  Looks like a typical attempt to stop any meaningful debate by trying to make the whole thing too difficult to understand.
The Tories have always sold themselves as "the party of small government" ie dont interfere, seems to not apply to anything to do with cars.

Possibly the bureaucrats trying to slip t heir mad brain ideas through while everyone is tied up with Brexit

I feel another letter to my MP coming on, if only I understood all the acronyms
Dave - Doon LWB 1st one made  ;-)up Name "Weather Permitting"


this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #10 on: February 06, 2018, 04:35:38 PM
Its one hell of a survey with tons of initials in it.  Looks like a typical attempt to stop any meaningful debate by trying to make the whole thing too difficult to understand.

I have forwarded this Consultation to the Plain English Society for their comments  ;-)up

http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/

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this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #11 on: February 06, 2018, 04:54:42 PM
Something else I wasn`t aware of, but you can get fairly small Catalytic Converters in Stainless should you be going down this route

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-SPORTS-EXHAUST-CATALYTIC-200-CELL-CONVERTOR-CAT-UNIVERSAL-STAINLESS-STEEL/252379664146?hash=item3ac3000f12:g:w7AAAMXQjWtRIMxz

 ;-)up
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this user is offline snoopy

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Reply #12 on: February 06, 2018, 06:38:07 PM
para 4.12 restored classics undergoing SVA is the worrying part does this mean anything that has not been taxed or insured for a long period so may have had work done will be put up for a test when you try and tax it.

may need to insure and tax anything parked up to keep it current and safe even if it is a pile of parts in the yard once the 40 year mot exemption kicks in.


this user is offline pepsi81

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Reply #13 on: February 06, 2018, 07:01:45 PM

This is getting silly. Is this a consequence of our recent success, possibly been waiting in winds just to grind us all down.

Possibly only a few months before it becomes legislation. I’ve several cars sorn; a 1975 super beetle,1991 CRX and a Mercedes, as well as a few old honda bikes .Do we fill in the survey posted by Dave ?

Paul


this user is offline Dave DND

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Reply #14 on: February 06, 2018, 07:10:46 PM
Do we fill in the survey posted by Dave ?


Absolutely   ;-)up

The more that fill it out, whether correctly or incorrectly, will identify the shortcomings of such nonsense, and remember, it only takes one person to hit the right chord and the whole lot could come tumbling down. And for any sceptics out there that do not believe that, then do a bit of research on a Lady called Gina Miller, because she was the person that brought the government to task over Brexit.

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